such thing as too much engine braking? - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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such thing as too much engine braking?

quick question. as last weekend was my first track weekend i noticed that i was engine braking a lot. i was almost always in 2nd gear with the exception of the straights and the blip between 1 and the carousel.

should i be relying more on the brakes themselves vs downshifting or just pulling in the clutch to slow the bike down?

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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:16 PM
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brake pads are cheaper and easier to replace than camchains.

That may have been bike-specific advice though...

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:17 PM
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if your engine braking at the track, your basicly "coasting" you can get the bike slowed down faster with the brakes, so you should be using those instead of the engine.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:21 PM
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:24 PM Thread Starter
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i see...so apparently i need to just suck it up and throw it into the turns.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:25 PM
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Never EVER, Pull in the Clutch unless you're shifting (or stopping completely), on the street or track (provisions of course for backing it in). Hard braking plus clutch in = lockup!!! Or, Scratchy scratchy on your nice new bike
That's all I know.

You should come to the SRTT on Saturday and learn all about the physics behind the countershaft sprocket vs. braking and suspension loading.

I hear though at Putnam it's almost all engine braking.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Mopar is correct.
of course I am a Ducati owner

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plotts View Post
I hear though at Putnam it's almost all engine braking.
once again, if your not on the brakes, and your letting the motor slow you down, your just coasting.

and on the track, your going for speed, so while your engine braking into the turn, i will stay in the throttle, brake harder and later than you and be way past you going into the turn

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:34 PM
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Ride a proper race bike and you do not have to worry about engine braking.
Or buy a slipper clutch.

http://www.rscycles.com/Bikes/125/04_rs125/125cc2.htm

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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:35 PM
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Ultimately..... you won't use much engine braking.


The goal of getting around a racetrack is to do it as fast as possible.

This means you are either on the gas, on the brakes or really leaned over.


A short part of the track.....


As the bike finishes turn 7 you begin to stand it up and wind the throttle to
the peg,..... still pinned through third, fourth, fifth you look for you brake marker.


At the brake marker you transition from full throttle smoothly to the brakes
clipping three downshifts for turn 1. The brakes fade away to nominal as
you rotate the motorcycle at the turn-in point. Arcing down to the apex
the brakes fade smoothly to off and the throttle cracks open a hair to settle
the chassis and prepare to drive off turn 1.

As the bike lines up with the exit you begin to stand it up and open the
throttle to the stop short shifting into third gear..... you roll off the throttle
( engine brake ) to plant the front end just before you rotate the motorcycle
to lean for turn 2. past the apex of two the throttle goes back to the pin until
you brake for the carousel.....


Kinda like that anyway..........


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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5AXIS View Post
Ride a proper race bike and you do not have to worry about engine braking.
Or buy a slipper clutch.

http://www.rscycles.com/Bikes/125/04_rs125/125cc2.htm

I H8engine braking
06 GSXR comes with a slipper clutch. apparently i dont know how to use it though.

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedblue View Post
06 GSXR comes with a slipper clutch. apparently i dont know how to use it though.

The slipper clutch is automatic.

It prevents EXCESSIVE engine braking from locking the rear wheel.

It does not stop all engine braking.


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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedblue View Post
06 GSXR comes with a slipper clutch. apparently i dont know how to use it though.
Its probably keeping your rear wheel from hopping and you dont even know it.

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."

Last edited by Kegger; 07-19-2007 at 05:02 PM.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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works for me. whatever keeps me on the track and out of the weeds i'm cool with. looks like i need to work on my braking and throttle command, hence y i'm staying in B group.

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plotts View Post
You should come to the SRTT on Saturday and learn all about the physics behind the countershaft sprocket vs. braking and suspension loading.
wish i could plotts but i'm going to be out of town. thanks anyway.

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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Its probably keeping your real wheel from hopping and you dont even know it.

Ahh, so that's how that works!

I've locked up the rear engine braking on the SV.

Granted, my rear tire is trash and locks up at the slightest application of brakes as well.

I wondered what a slipper clutch did...interesting.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Its probably keeping your real wheel from hopping and you dont even know it.

+100! It be scary going into a turn hot with the rear end jumping all over the place! Been there dropped that!

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
Ahh, so that's how that works!

I've locked up the rear engine braking on the SV.

Granted, my rear tire is trash and locks up at the slightest application of brakes as well.

I wondered what a slipper clutch did...interesting.
Its not necessarily your tire being bad, when your braking, the weight is all forward so the rear gets light, even with brand new tires it will lock if your aggressive enough with it.

"When in doubt, use full throttle. It may not improve your situation, but it will end the suspense."
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 07:00 PM
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THESE ARE JUST MY NEWB THOUGHTS...PLEASE TELL ME IF I'M WRONG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedblue View Post
works for me. whatever keeps me on the track and out of the weeds i'm cool with. looks like i need to work on my braking and throttle command, hence y i'm staying in B group.
I think you got your answers from everyone above, but I don't think, from a practical standpoint, that you should make zero engine braking an immediate goal. Rather you should make braking later/harder your goal....with this end in mind, engine braking will go away on its own (engine braking is just really soft/premature braking).

I sometimes end up engine braking for a second or two because I'm in that zone where I personally can't really tell if I could still be safely on the throttle, but I can't really tell if it's too soon to brake (lack of track experience).

My desire to be smooth trumps my desire for down right short lap times. I simply don't have the skills yet to smoothly go instantly from throttle to front brake every lap, in every turn....as a result I end up "coasting" for a short moment here an there, as I smoothly roll off the gas and onto the front brake (yeah I know, this is treating the throttle/front brake as two controls, not one, but...)

If your braking is so early and so gradual that it involves engine braking followed by front braking, well then, that's just where you're at right now. As you get more and more comfortable, the window of engine braking between throttle and front brake will get smaller and smaller. Eventually you'll eliminate all engine braking and continue gradually braking later and harder.

Smoothness and baby steps, man....smoooove it out.....

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Last edited by DefyInertia; 07-19-2007 at 07:07 PM.
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Its not necessarily your tire being bad, when your braking, the weight is all forward so the rear gets light, even with brand new tires it will lock if your aggressive enough with it.
Mine gets moving on a pretty regular basis...slides back and forth quite a bit.

Scared me at first, then I thought it was cool for about a minute, then I realized I need to really work on my slipping and blipping or I'm gonna end up on my face or simply never improve.

Setting up before a turn is definitly my biggest challenge at this point.

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Last edited by DefyInertia; 07-19-2007 at 07:05 PM. Reason: insert: "never"
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintedblue View Post
quick question. as last weekend was my first track weekend i noticed that i was engine braking a lot. i was almost always in 2nd gear with the exception of the straights and the blip between 1 and the carousel.

should i be relying more on the brakes themselves vs downshifting or just pulling in the clutch to slow the bike down?
hey ill give my 2 cents, and i didnt read all the replyies cause i dont care. here is my 2 cents.

this is what you need to do.

GAS it everywhere, and when you need to slow down, wait till the last second and BREAK WHILE ENGINE BREAKING, then back on the GAS

its that fcuken simple to produce the fastest times you can.



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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 07:28 PM

 
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Wink is right.

Next time you come out, just bring me a can of gas, and I'll ride your bike for you to make sure the slipper clutch is working well.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Wink is right.

Next time you come out, just bring me a can of gas, and I'll ride your bike for you to make sure the slipper clutch is working well.
well then it looks like you need to get your ass to HPT sucka .

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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefyInertia View Post
THESE ARE JUST MY NEWB THOUGHTS...PLEASE TELL ME IF I'M WRONG!!!



I think you got your answers from everyone above, but I don't think, from a practical standpoint, that you should make zero engine braking an immediate goal. Rather you should make braking later/harder your goal....with this end in mind, engine braking will go away on its own (engine braking is just really soft/premature braking).

I sometimes end up engine braking for a second or two because I'm in that zone where I personally can't really tell if I could still be safely on the throttle, but I can't really tell if it's too soon to brake (lack of track experience).

My desire to be smooth trumps my desire for down right short lap times. I simply don't have the skills yet to smoothly go instantly from throttle to front brake every lap, in every turn....as a result I end up "coasting" for a short moment here an there, as I smoothly roll off the gas and onto the front brake (yeah I know, this is treating the throttle/front brake as two controls, not one, but...)

If your braking is so early and so gradual that it involves engine braking followed by front braking, well then, that's just where you're at right now. As you get more and more comfortable, the window of engine braking between throttle and front brake will get smaller and smaller. Eventually you'll eliminate all engine braking and continue gradually braking later and harder.

Smoothness and baby steps, man....smoooove it out.....
newb or not this makes total sense. as the day/weekend progress i got faster as i got more comfortable. this is just another area i need to work on. thanks.

#910

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when i start to come undone, stitch me together.
when you see me stretched remind me of what left this outlaw torn."
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-19-2007, 11:27 PM
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That is a hard habit for me to break... Though the only time I would engine break on the track, was when I was on the breaks too, not just to coast.
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-20-2007, 08:24 AM

 
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You want to be on the gas till it's time to brake. If your not on the gas, you should be braking. Stay on the gas, when you close the gas smoothly, you roll to the brakes smoothly. Apply them lightly and squeeze them to increase braking as needed to set your corner entry speed.

This doesn't mean you have to go balls out till it's time to brake so hard you feel like your going to die. It just means one or the other. Stay on the gas till it's time to brake, either by necessity or comfort. Then go to the brakes. If you realize you could have waited longer to brake, then move your braking marker. If your getting better on the brakes. Move your brake marker.

When you get to the point where your looking for places to make up time, then you worry about how long to stay on the gas before you brake, and look to shorten the amount of time on the brakes.

Engine braking and coasting is a hard habit to break. Engine braking in the morning sessions when the track is cold and the pace is slow is probably the worst time. You need to use the brakes to put weight on the front tire and cause the carcass to flex. That puts vital heat in the tire which you need before you pickup the pace. Same with the gas. When the bike is upright, get in to the gas and load that rear tire with some power and weight to get it up to temperature.

I figure this is one reason why we see people crash shortly after being waved by on the track in the mornings.

Even at the B / Intro pace, you'll see me braking at the corners. Maybe not very long, but as much as I can to load that tire from time to time and get some heat. It's also the first time out and the pace is slow. I want to be sure my brakes are working and nothing has changed since I last rode.

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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-20-2007, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefyInertia View Post
Mine gets moving on a pretty regular basis...slides back and forth quite a bit.
Could easily be that your suspension setup is a contributing factor as well.

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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-20-2007, 09:06 AM
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As these guys have already stated, coasting is wasting time.

At first you should be concerned about how well you are riding (smooth lines and smooth on the controls, good body position, etc.)

But once you have the basics down, you need to actively apply those basics toward a lower lap time. In your pursuit to go faster or reduce your lap times, you need to be looking for places on the track where you are wasting time.

Reducing the amount of time it takes you to transition from full throttle down the straight to the apex of the corner is a good place to start. This will include downshifting as quickly as possible and getting your braking done as quickly as possible. It will also include increasing and honing your speed perception so that you can more accurately set corner entry speeds.

Using the engine to get your braking done takes WAY WAY too long and is effectively driving up your lap times.

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-20-2007, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefyInertia View Post
Mine gets moving on a pretty regular basis...slides back and forth quite a bit.
Following up on Ron's point. If you have 0 free sag the suspension can not drop down and let the rear wheel maintain contact, then it is free to dance a bit because it has no corrective tracking force.

A very common issue is simply too much weight on the hands while sitting up high. The higher CG and leverage through the bars can lift the back wheel pretty easily. With my "little" bike, my bodyweight is a much higher % of the total mass and this lever action is very obvious. I really try to keep all my weight off my hands and use my legs and tank to hold the bike. I love Stomp Grip!

Experiment and see what you find.

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-20-2007, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
d0 work s0n!
 
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: West Chicago
Posts: 2,218
Location: West Chicago
Sportbike: '06 GSX-R
Years Riding: Moment I got off the street
How you found us: twinky in the donut?
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Could easily be that your suspension setup is a contributing factor as well.
well ron we all know what happened last time you helped someone with their suspension. bike jump anyone?

with that said...can you check mine out at HPT?

#910

"if i close my mind in fear, please pry it open. if my face becomes sincere beware.
when i start to come undone, stitch me together.
when you see me stretched remind me of what left this outlaw torn."

Last edited by paintedblue; 07-20-2007 at 09:19 AM.
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