2 Cylinder Vs. 4 Cylinder..... Why? - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:08 PM Thread Starter

 
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2 Cylinder Vs. 4 Cylinder..... Why?

Ok. Why?

If a racing class allows up to 600cc I-4's, why do they need to allow a larger 2 cylinder to be competitive in the same class?

If you have 600cc's why can't the 2 cylinder make enough power to be competitive with a 4 cylinder? The 2 cylinder has less mass, should have less weight.

Why does Ducati for example need these special rules to allow them to race and be competitive? If they can't compete with the same displacement, why don't they start making I-4's. It seems that the 2 cylinder is apparently less efficient. So other then heritage, why do they still run twins?

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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:14 PM
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Ducati GP bikes are 4cylinders and still a "twin"

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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:16 PM
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its kinda like 2stroke vs 4stroke I think.. Twin has a considerably different powerband, and to get to even numbers with an inline, extra capacity is required..

I think there's more to that, but obviously the people putting the series on, want all the brands, which will draw more spectators..
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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:21 PM
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well, due to large cylinder volume, longer stroke, heavier pistons and other factors, twins just can't rev as fast as multi cylinder engines. HP is a derivative of torque and revs - HP = torque * RPM / 5252. since revs are lower, torque has to be higher to compensate for the low rev, and how do you get extra torque - primarily by displacement...
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
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well, due to large cylinder volume, longer stroke, heavier pistons and other factors, twins just can't rev as fast as multi cylinder engines. HP is a derivative of torque and revs - HP = torque * RPM / 5252. since revs are lower, torque has to be higher to compensate for the low rev, and how do you get extra torque - primarily by displacement...
I as so gonna say that but I couldnt figure out how to explain it. Nice job.
Ride a 916 on the track, you find out real quick that although it's basically a litre bike, it is only marginally faster down the straights the the 600's. and if they are really new they will either be even or slightly faster.




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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
Ok. Why?

If a racing class allows up to 600cc I-4's, why do they need to allow a larger 2 cylinder to be competitive in the same class?

If you have 600cc's why can't the 2 cylinder make enough power to be competitive with a 4 cylinder? The 2 cylinder has less mass, should have less weight.

Why does Ducati for example need these special rules to allow them to race and be competitive? If they can't compete with the same displacement, why don't they start making I-4's. It seems that the 2 cylinder is apparently less efficient. So other then heritage, why do they still run twins?
Simple answer, valve area. A 4 cylinder can have greater valve area, meaning more fuel and air can be pumped in and out. Also, smaller lighter pistons allow higher revs, and horsepower is a a function of RPM. (Torque x RPM)/5250, IIRC. Asa rule, motors that can rev higher will make more HP all things being equal.

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:44 PM Thread Starter

 
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I guess the simple answer to why is because they can.

They stick with the twins for their heritage. The race organizations continue to work with them. So why change a good thing huh.

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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:47 PM
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Simple answer, valve area. A 4 cylinder can have greater valve area, meaning more fuel and air can be pumped in and out. Also, smaller lighter pistons allow higher revs, and horsepower is a a function of RPM. (Torque x RPM)/5250, IIRC. Asa rule, motors that can rev higher will make more HP all things being equal.
+1
engines are essentially air pumps

maximize valve area per displacement volume and you'll maximize HP

the higher the number of cylinders, the larger possible valve area
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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
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I guess the simple answer to why is because they can.

They stick with the twins for their heritage. The race organizations continue to work with them. So why change a good thing huh.
I don't think it's just the heritage. Competing with Japanese manufacturers is tough, Ducati needs something to set them apart. They are creating a niche market.

But twins are nice per se, though. Because you don't need to rev them high, you get all the power right away. A lot of people simply prefer them.

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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 10:50 PM
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As was aready stated, valve area (intake/exhaust volume) and piston weight.

Another consideration is force distribution, an inline pounds the cases in two directions and can easily be balanced without adding much weight to the rotating mass of the engine. A V or L config. distributes force in quite a few more directions which caused stress on the cases (they must be beefier) and it will take a lot of additional mass on the rotating assembly to smooth out and balance that motor. This hinders max revs even more than piston weight.

This is the reason why Hodgson bitched about not being able to use the SBK crank on his Duc in AMA. it was much lighter and helped the motor rev higher without failure to acheive more juice at the black rubber donut.

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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 11:06 PM
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I think it's mostly about power delivery like Downforce said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoparBoyy View Post
Ducati GP bikes are 4cylinders and still a "twin"
Can someone explain the difference betwen this 4 banging "twin" and a V-4? Is it the firing order/timing?

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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 11:10 PM
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I think it's mostly about power delivery like Downforce said.



Can someone explain the difference betwen this 4 banging "twin" and a V-4? Is it the firing order/timing?
Yes. The oringinal D16 GP bike fired 2 cylinders at the same time (big bang) in order to get the power advantage of the 4 cyl configuration, but the power delivery of a twin. They then changed to a 'long bang' configuration which fired 1,2..3,4, if that makes sense. I may be mistaken, but I think they may e using a screamer configuration now.

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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-24-2008, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
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Can someone explain the difference betwen this 4 banging "twin" and a V-4? Is it the firing order/timing?
Yes, in a traditional V-4 the cyclinders fire in opposite "corners". While with a "big bang" V-4, the cyclinders fire in forward or aft pairs. I-4 bike experimanted with the "Big Bang" firing order, firing two cyclingers at the same exact time. Giving a different power pulse, all in the search for traction.

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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-25-2008, 05:53 AM
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All correct above.

I'm not sure if some said above but the piston size and weight of a twin vs 4 is very different. Twins have normally heavier cranks and piston for the rotational mass where as 4's have light weight parts.

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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-25-2008, 06:36 AM
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Can someone explain the difference betwen this 4 banging "twin" and a V-4? Is it the firing order/timing?
There is nothing to explain. It is a V4. HRC already showed that a twin could only be somewhat competitve in GP. Ducati knew they needed to abandon the twin and run a V4. But for marketing reasons, they called it a twin pulse.

What bike won the most races in GP history? The NSR500 and that was a V4. The V4 is the best motor config for road racing.

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-25-2008, 06:54 AM
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2008, 09:48 PM Thread Starter

 
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Great stuff guys
+1 There are some logic hear I've never heard or thought of. Interesting....

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-26-2008, 10:00 PM
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i remember reading something a long time ago, about power pulses going to the rear tire.. basically with a twin, in a 1:1 world, which equals 4th gear, there'd only be two power pulses put to the tire in each revolution of the tire, where with a 4cyl, there'd be 4 power pulses put to the tire.

1:1 would be 1 turn of the crank, for one turn of the countershaft. Usually 4th gear is 1:1. however the countershaft would have to rotate about 3 or 4 times to make the rear sprocket turn once... so i dont understand anyways..

i think a bigger advantage the twins have, is being much narrower, and are able to acheive a much bigger lean angle, with a lower center of gravity.. my $.02

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkotlin View Post
If you have 600cc's why can't the 2 cylinder make enough power to be competitive with a 4 cylinder? The 2 cylinder has less mass, should have less weight.

Why does Ducati for example need these special rules to allow them to race and be competitive? If they can't compete with the same displacement, why don't they start making I-4's. It seems that the 2 cylinder is apparently less efficient. So other then heritage, why do they still run twins?
Ducati was very famous for singles at one time. Dental equipment too.

A two cylinder doesn't have less mass necessarily. And you'll have to keep those pistons from throwing that mass around enough to bust rods, etc. You give and take.

But I think allowing a twin cylinder a 40% increase in displacement over the previous smaller displacement advantages...well, I think someone must be getting a blow job or something.

You know, at one time, displacement was kind of absolute. 250, 500's, etc. Two stroke, four stroke. Build your best design and race it. If it sucks, change it.


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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 10:36 AM

 
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pick this book up if you want to learn even more

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 11:26 AM Thread Starter

 
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pick this book up if you want to learn even more

http://www.amazon.com/MotoGP-Technol.../dp/189361879X
I have it. But haven't read it yet. I guess I should.

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 01:34 PM
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Here is the problem. A V4 is a better config and will out perform a twin of the same displacement every time. So, if they don't give Ducait a displacement advantage, Ducati would have to run a V4. Ducati wants to run twins for obvious reasons. But, they were not going to get that advantage in MotoGP, so what do they run? A V4.

There are no V4s anymore in WSBK and the displacement advantage went away (for years it was a 900cc and up twin against 750cc V4s), but now that the I4s have caught up, Ducati gets their displacement advantage back.

When HRC could not win but one title with the RC45, what did they do? They made a twin and beat Ducati with it the first year out.

In WSBK it used to be that not only did Ducati get a displacement advantage, they got a weight break too.

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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 02:23 PM Thread Starter

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Dave View Post
Ducati was very famous for singles at one time. Dental equipment too.

A two cylinder doesn't have less mass necessarily. And you'll have to keep those pistons from throwing that mass around enough to bust rods, etc. You give and take.

But I think allowing a twin cylinder a 40% increase in displacement over the previous smaller displacement advantages...well, I think someone must be getting a blow job or something.

You know, at one time, displacement was kind of absolute. 250, 500's, etc. Two stroke, four stroke. Build your best design and race it. If it sucks, change it.


Was nice meeting you too, Greg!
That was my logic. You get x # of cc's. Lets see what you can do with it. It seems strange that they make special rules for Ducati. But it's not my business, so what do I know.

I love Ducati's. I can't afford one. But I just wondered why they seem to get special treatment.

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-27-2008, 02:35 PM
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But I just wondered why they seem to get special treatment.
Because WSBK wants to keep an very important factory team in the series. MotoGP is a differant story. They don't get any special treatment there.

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-28-2008, 08:56 AM
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i remember reading something a long time ago, about power pulses going to the rear tire.. basically with a twin, in a 1:1 world, which equals 4th gear, there'd only be two power pulses put to the tire in each revolution of the tire, where with a 4cyl, there'd be 4 power pulses put to the tire.

1:1 would be 1 turn of the crank, for one turn of the countershaft. Usually 4th gear is 1:1. however the countershaft would have to rotate about 3 or 4 times to make the rear sprocket turn once... so i dont understand anyways..

i think a bigger advantage the twins have, is being much narrower, and are able to acheive a much bigger lean angle, with a lower center of gravity.. my $.02
You got it man. You can have all the horsepower in the world but if you can't put it to the ground productively its worthless. Less power pulses per tire revolution seam to make traction more managable.

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-28-2008, 09:36 AM
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The RC51 was wider than my GSXR600. My SV was at least more like my R6.

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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-28-2008, 09:37 AM
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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-28-2008, 09:43 AM
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The RC51 was wider than my GSXR600. My SV was at least more like my R6.
My 749 is much narrower than the Stupid Gixxer was. That said, the 675 is the narrowest bike I've been on, and its an inline-3. Just slightly narrower than the 749.

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-03-2008, 12:11 PM
 
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That was my logic. You get x # of cc's. Lets see what you can do with it. It seems strange that they make special rules for Ducati. But it's not my business, so what do I know.

What most people don't realize is that Ducati has not been playing on an even playing field with the in line 4s for almost 10 years. To keep competitive, most WSBK and AMA bikes are nothing like the bike you can buy from your "local" (as most of us know there are very few that can claim they have a local Duc dealer) dealer. Think about it, since the 916 and early 996's, how many privateers have ridden and placed in the top 10? Now, look back at the number of privateers on an inline. The key here is that the twins have fallen behind year after year, and the only thing that keeps them even somewhat competitive is more money thrown at the engine in the form of light weight unobtainium and other such things not available to those with normal bank accounts. Could Ducati have stayed competitive without the displacement advantage? Sure, but their argument was that it was not cost effective to do so...and can you blame them? Now that the cc limit for a twin has been bumped, I believe the amount of other concessions that they were allowed has been dropped. Think about this, if you can take a GSXR 1k off the showroom floor, rework the suspension, slap an exhaust on, and remap the ecu vs. buying a 999, reworking the suspension, tear down the engine, add high comp lightweight pistons, lightweight crank, light valves, different cams...etc, slap on an exhaust, remap. Which would you do? Keep in mind the 999 already costs almost $10k more than the GSXR to begin with.

In a perfect world, a twin and an inline, or even a V4 would make comparable power without the need to do major work to make one as competitive as the other. But this is not the case unfortunately. Not that I like Nascar, but they too deal with short comings of one manufacturer compared to another. Not only do they restrict engine size, but they also make sure every car body fits a template. They do it to keep everyone in the same ball park....which is why Ducati (being the only twin still competing) such a large displacement advantage. Now if Ducati starts running away with everything, I am sure the sanctioning bodies will impose either a weight penalty or possibly rethink the displacement rule mid season. Everything has a way of equaling itself out. And by the time the rules get changed again, if the twins are at that much of an advantage, the in-lines will have improved to match them, and the cycle will continue as it always has.
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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-03-2008, 12:48 PM
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Nice post, but explain this to me again?

"Now if Ducati starts running away with everything, I am sure the sanctioning bodies will impose either a weight penalty or possibly rethink the displacement rule mid season. Everything has a way of equaling itself out. And by the time the rules get changed again, if the twins are at that much of an advantage, the in-lines will have improved to match them, and the cycle will continue as it always has."

WSBK has NEVER imposed a weight penatly of any type against Ducati in the history of the series! They have NEVER reversed a ruling midseason that gave them an advantage. And I4s have only recently become "a match" for them AFTER a gradual phase out of the weight and displacment advantages given to Ducati. The V4s and I4s used to have to be 750cc not too long ago. Why do you think HRC built the VTR1000 twin??



This is Poles, Podiums, Wins, 2nd pl., 3rd pl., Fast L. and Titles

1. Ducati 139 642 261 209 172 248 14
2. Honda 40 312 98 110 104 85 4
3. Yamaha 16 177 44 58 75 56 1
4. Kawasaki 19 163 35 57 71 36
5. Suzuki 15 102 25 34 43 38 1
6. Bimota 4 22 11 7 4 5
7. Aprilia 8 26 8 6 12 12
8. Benelli
9. MV Agusta
10. Petronas 2 2 1 1

If you ain't with us, then it's just bad news.

Last edited by jrock; 02-03-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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