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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-15-2008, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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suspension guru's come in here..

I just bought this new 08 1000RR and I have a question.. ( i know its a first )

Im gonna change my dunlop qualifiers to Michelin pilot power 2cts. i was also thinking of changing the rear from a 190/50-17 to a 190/55-17. Should i need to adjust the front ride height by sliding the forks to raise the front. It seems that my forks are already flush with the triple clamp on top, or is this something that would be acheived with sag settings.

This bike is going to see trackdays + street riding, so if it's not a huge issue, then i wont mess with it, but if you feel it is... i'll prolly pay someone trackside to set me up, since im clueless on rebound/compression settings and what they would affect.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-15-2008, 10:29 PM
 
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Turn One Racing

I think these guys recommend going to this company in Volo.

Track guys? I'd like to know as well need to get mine setup correctly.

Thanks.
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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 01:34 AM
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Not a guru but from my experience with a dual-duty liter bike and switching to a 55 profile (even a 190/60 dunlop slick a few times), don't worry about messing with the geometry for right now. Just get the baseline sag and dampening set and ride it. You just got the bike so you need to get comfortable on it. It will turn in a little bit quicker cuz your wheel base will shorten and rear ride height will increase slightly but I wouldn't be concerned unless you start to get a lot of front end headshake under hard acceleration out of corners. I'm not that familiar with the new 1000RR but you may have ride height adjustment to shorten the shock length and lower the rear. I tried Michelin Power Races last year and had Superbike Italia set my suspension trackside. I'm going with Pirelli slicks this year and had Turn One Racing set it up for me a couple weeks ago.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 02:24 AM
 
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What was the price tag after your employee dicount

$7789 OTD?? with dealer plates
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 08:29 AM
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Everybody has an opinion on this stuff, and eventually a lot of it will come down to how you want the bike to feel. I have turned every knob every which way and still been able to run the almost exact same lap times. The only difference really is how the bike feels to you. This is what I recommend you do.

After tinkering with it myself for a few years, and making plenty of mistakes, here's what I am doing this year and it seems to be is working well for me.

1. I want MAXIMUM stability. I can force the bike to turn better and drive harder by utilizing the controls better and working on honing my skills. However, there is nothing I can do as a rider to INCREASE stability. Therefore, I FLATTEN THE BIKE OUT.

Give it the maximum trail you can, this will really help settle the bike down as the pace increases. I.E. forks NOT lowered in the triples, NO rear ride height added. I am well aware that this will go against what many other guys do, again, I'm just telling what works for me. This will take care of your base geometry.

2. Set your sags at 35/20 front and 30/10 rear. If you can't get close to that, change your springs out. These settings will put the springs in the sweet spot and give you some room for further adjustments.

3. Match your fork spring preload with appropriate rebound, it should rebound to the top and just barely begin a second stroke. Best to set this after a few laps when the fork oil is warm.

4. Set fork compression about middle ways through the clicker adjustments. During later tweaking you can fiddle with this but remember that this is such a small change that you want to use this for fine tuning only.

5. Set shock rebound to match shock preload. This takes some experience, but as a general rule it should not be too fast or too slow just a controlled return.

6. Set the high speed and low speed compression settings on the shock middle ways through the clicker adjustments.

7. Make sure the bike is balanced front to back. Have someone that is real heavy bounce up and down on the bike, putting equal inputs into the bars and rear sets and carefully watch to be sure the bike's suspension rates are the same on the front and back. Make necessary adjustments to rebound and compression to get the bike's suspension to work together at the same RATE front and rear.

8. Put a zip tie on the front fork. Hit the track and run your most aggressive pace with a good set of tires, being smooth on the brakes. Look at the zip tie and make sure you are using 9/10 of the fork travel. If not back off the preload until you are. Adjust everything to match this new preload setting on the front.

NOW, you have a baseline setup.

Ron Hix
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Last edited by ronhix; 05-16-2008 at 08:38 AM.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 08:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Everybody has an opinion on this stuff, and eventually a lot of it will come down to how you want the bike to feel. I have turned every knob every which way and still been able to run the almost exact same lap times. The only difference really is how the bike feels to you. This is what I recommend you do................................................ .................................................. ....


NOW, you have a baseline setup.
I have experience working on bike setup and as a baseline place to start the above sounds about right.

The thing to remember about setup is it is different for every rider. Being able to ride fast is about having a bike that is setup for you, not using somebody else's numbers just because they are fast.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 09:05 AM
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Great write up Ron, you have taken the best of Moss, and simplified it even further! I'm printing that out and throwing it in my binder in the trailer.

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 09:50 AM
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As usual, great write up Ron.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'stability'?

From what i understand, a bike with a nose down attitude will turn in easier, but become less stable.

Does this mean headshakes?

I was talking to Marshall about the Dunlop 50lb 190/60 slicks and i coulnt get rid of the headshake on hard drives.

He explained to me that, due to the expansion of those rears (up to 1" i think)
It would raise the rear ride height, causing this nose down attitude, making the bike unstable, and thus : headshake.

So, in that case, i needed to lower the rear ride height (or raise the front) to correct this condition. At the time, i had no idea what to do and do not use those silly tires anymore.
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:00 AM
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Don't mess with the geometry. Set your sag. Does the shock have a ride height adjustment? Get the bathroom scales out and measure your weight bias. 51% on the front wheel. 49% on the rear. If you're at 50 / 50 leave it alone.

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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:01 AM
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Stability IMO can mean a few different things. Eliminating headshake would fall under that category. But stability is most important when the bike is on its side. A stable bike will carve a corner once you get it to tip in. It will feel very planted and will need little or no futher inputs from the rider to finish the corner. It will also allow the rider to get on the gas earlier and harder without upsetting the chasis.

The opposite is true for an unstable bike, which will be very twitchy while on its side. Mid-corner it will feel like the bike wants to keep tipping in and will make the rider hold the bike up to counteract that. It will be hard to get the bike to finish the corner becuase every little input from the rider will upset the chasis.

I'm sure Dr. Hix can better explain this... but that's the basic idea I have.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:06 AM
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Lets not get too complicated here fellows. The dude just wants a baseline setup. You guys are all going into rocket science on him and shit.

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KFD View Post
As usual, great write up Ron.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by 'stability'?

From what i understand, a bike with a nose down attitude will turn in easier, but become less stable.

Does this mean headshakes?

I was talking to Marshall about the Dunlop 50lb 190/60 slicks and i coulnt get rid of the headshake on hard drives.

He explained to me that, due to the expansion of those rears (up to 1" i think)
It would raise the rear ride height, causing this nose down attitude, making the bike unstable, and thus : headshake.

So, in that case, i needed to lower the rear ride height (or raise the front) to correct this condition. At the time, i had no idea what to do and do not use those silly tires anymore.
Yeah, head shakes would certainly fall under instability. But more so, I am talking about stability under high speed cornering. Ever feel the handlebars move back and forth mid-corner -> that's the front wanting to tuck, i.e. instability. Ever see the back end want to step out on corner entry -> again, instability.

When the bike is stable, it will feel really planted in the corner and basically just feel really good over on its side at full lean angle. This is what I want in a setup. The next most important thing for me personally, is that the bike can still change directions well when I am hard on the gas. Stability under hard braking is also important. All of these things are what I am talking about when I say, "STABILITY".

Basically, raise the front as much as possible and lower the rear as much as possible. Hope that helps!

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Last edited by ronhix; 05-16-2008 at 10:09 AM.
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Basically, raise the front as much as possible and lower the rear as much as possible. Hope that helps!
Say what?

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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Lets not get too complicated here fellows. The dude just wants a baseline setup. You guys are all going into rocket science on him and shit.
I already gave him the answer for his basic baseline, with step by step instructions. Let's discuss beyond that so we can all stay interested (and awake) on a boring Friday at work!

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
Say what?
Yep, you read that correctly. Pretty controversial isn't it?

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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Yep, you read that correctly. Pretty controversial isn't it?
Yea, I'm bewildered.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Yep, you read that correctly. Pretty controversial isn't it?
And remember, it's a baseline. Adjustment can be made. An example is my bike, we set it up as flat as we could. I changed the gearing which moved my rear wheel back as far as it can go. We raised the rear about 5mm so it wasn't completely choppered out. But let me tell you...on its side the bike is rock solid.

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:14 AM
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What about the rear angle? I remember learning that the rear "angle" should be at about 12-14 degrees. I forget the specific on how to check this, and understand that on some bikes it is impossible to change.

While we're on the topic of geometry and suspension...
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:20 AM
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As we wait I have a feeling Ron is typing a book.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:23 AM
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I had my sag set the beginning of this year. I'm a n00b by all means, but when I hit the track after the setup, the difference was night and day. I could hold the corners and it felt really good. Only minor tweaks, if that need to be made now with my stock setup. It's amazing what setting your sag can do.

to suspension.
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
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I had my sag set the beginning of this year. I'm a n00b by all means, but when I hit the track after the setup, the difference was night and day. I could hold the corners and it felt really good. Only minor tweaks, if that need to be made now with my stock setup. It's amazing what setting your sag can do.

to suspension.
That's what I was going to say. The new late model bikes are pretty good in stock form. I think he's just worried about the tires changing the geometry. Usually a Pilot Power is a taller tire than a Dunlop.

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
As we wait I have a feeling Ron is typing a book.


Actually, I was in a meeting at work.

And now I am leaving to drive out to MAM and ride all weekend. It sux to be me.

You guys keep talking, I'm gonna go ride!


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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Well, the bike doesnt have a rear ride height adjustment, and the forks are already at the highest ride height position. If you dont think the taller tire is going to make a difference on a bike that already has a steep rake angle, I'll just set sag and go from there.

my 600RR still had all stock settings as the sag was within the limits with me on it..

Ron can you explain what you mean by 35/10 in the sag numbers? 10 static stag and 35 with rider/gear?
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 11:58 AM
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Ron can you explain what you mean by 35/10 in the sag numbers? 10 static stag and 35 with rider/gear?
Yep, front sag somewhere around 35mm rider sag and 20mm of free sag. Rear sag somewhere around 30mm of rider sag and 10mm of free sag.

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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-16-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronhix View Post
Therefore, I FLATTEN THE BIKE OUT.

Give it the maximum trail you can, this will really help settle the bike down as the pace increases. I.E. forks NOT lowered in the triples, NO rear ride height added. I am well aware that this will go against what many other guys do, again, I'm just telling what works for me. This will take care of your base geometry.
I agree that a "choppered" out bike will feel more stable, but aren't you contradicting yoursellf with the statements above? I.E. forks NOT lowered in the triples? Maybe it's just semantics. To me, I would want the forks lowered as far as possible in the triples (while still having full contact with the top clamp) to achieve this. By the way, you can really feel this on dirt bikes. But even between a MX bike and an Enduro model, you can feel that the MX bike is quicker to turn in, while the Enduro is much more stable at speed....usually with forks lowered all the way in the triples.
Thoughts?

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-19-2008, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
I agree that a "choppered" out bike will feel more stable, but aren't you contradicting yoursellf with the statements above? I.E. forks NOT lowered in the triples? Maybe it's just semantics. To me, I would want the forks lowered as far as possible in the triples (while still having full contact with the top clamp) to achieve this. By the way, you can really feel this on dirt bikes. But even between a MX bike and an Enduro model, you can feel that the MX bike is quicker to turn in, while the Enduro is much more stable at speed....usually with forks lowered all the way in the triples.
Thoughts?
100% correct, I mis-spoke.

You have it correct, I meant that the forks SHOULD be level or even counter sunk a bit in the triples. A lot of guys will RAISE there forks up out of the triples to lower the front and get the bike to be more "on it's nose", thereby reducing trail and stability.


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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 12:39 PM
 
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If it helps Turn One racing only charges $45 for a baseline setup at the track and they are at every midwest event for Nesba.

They are going to refresh my front suspension, get new front springs (I don't weigh what casey stoner does), and set my baseline and deliver my bike to the track for the BHF nesba weekend on the 7th and 8th! Can't wait.
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 12:53 PM
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how does one measure static sag??

I know its a complete noob question

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 01:04 PM
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A = Measure the suspension fully extended (bike completely off the ground).

B = Measure the suspension with the bike just sitting there under its own weight.

A - B = Static Sag

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 02:23 PM
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A couple of things to consider here.

One, not everything you read is true, and not everything that's true for you is true for someone else.

Regarding Ron's "controversial" approach to geometry, over the last few years more and more manufacturers are putting sportbikes on the showroom floor with more aggressive geometry than in the past. Thus, instead of having to constantly jack the back of the bikes up and stand them on the nose like riders have for years to make them turn, now we're seeing more bikes that could use a little less aggressive geometry in certain situations. ie. late model GSXRs like Ron's

The other thing is to make sure you are comparing apples to apples when taking advice over the internet. Comments like "my bike" and "your bike" need to be evaluated based on year, make, and model, not to mention tires, suspension, gearing, and rider. Then of course, there's what kind of feel you want from your bike.

And if you're measuring your own Sag, be as accurate as possible, which is hard if you don't know what you're doing. I also strongly recommend you measure and record the "stiction" front and rear, as it is important to know.

And yes, Turn One does offer Sag setting and full baseline suspension set up, with all your settings recorded on two pages for your reference. It takes about half an hour, and can be extremely helpful for someone who's serious about their riding and wants reliable, repeatable numbers and a solid baseline suspension setting front and rear.



NOTE: I am not now, nor will I ever be a "Suspension Guru" I just have a better understanding of it than most people, and love to go fast.
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