Lets talk about air fences shall we since one of the guys i know got hurt. - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Lets talk about air fences shall we since one of the guys i know got hurt.

http://www.nesba.com/TrackTalk/bb/Fo...ML/004621.html

dustin B. got hurt, lets wish him a speedy recovery, and some prayers his way.

but here is the topic and my question.

i think for a couple years the air bag drive has been going all over the place but just last year i happened to be at the nesba.com chili cook off. through the members and visitors that were there we raised some good money and Bob, the owner of Nesba matched the amount raised towards air bags, towards and for to be put in place at Blackhawk farms raceway.


now mind you, working together is a great thing to provide a needed item for safety, and regaurdless of whom or what the thought and hard efforts and genorousity as well as the tax benifits are a major plus to HELP the efforts such items of safety for track riding while trying to increase safety for all on the course and even the visitors



NOW here is my questions, and i really want to know why these issues are being done this way.
these are my personal thoughts, i COULD be wrong but if i am prove i am and maybe we can work together if you feel strongly about them as i do.



what governing agency is in charge of looking into safety aspects of these track courses if any?

if there is such a agency why are they not requiring these race courses that take in a VERY LUCRATIVE gross income and raise the bar of operating and maintaining such factors in place in regards for safety.

while certain track day vendors, different business within the industry contribute towards this charity if you will, its a benefit for them. trust me they after a while depending on structure they NEED to get rid of that money, and or its a tax write off. now on the personal level of customers or just nice people out there in the world that donate money for such a cause.


it doesn't matter that WE or business are pitching in to help this issue of safety.

why are the TRACK COURSES NOT DOING IT? it cost to much? well guess what thats part of doing business. they dont feel its a needed item? i dont think so last year Blackhawks farm made it well known that things things SAVES LIFE'S and to please donate towards them.

that being said for 1, i know for a fact since i was there and i am basing what i know, what i heard and also reading articles about how its great.

i cant seem to find, anywhere why the tracks are not providing them. if there is a over seeing agency i am sure there is, cause they reqire most tracks to provide TIRE WALLS! so if they are making them provide some sort of protection to stop the BIKES, and now the push for air fences to SAVE THE RIDER.

well why dont they switch there focus to that?


i need some answers and i am confused, i have never heard the WHY the track are not providing them as part of doing business.


i know why, i just dont want to be a rude bastard right now and there is no need to.



p.s. i am not targeting any particular track course, business of any kind as a attack on you, i am asking general questions from what i know. i am not making this a TARGET FOCUSED agenda yet.




Last edited by Odysseys; 06-06-2008 at 02:31 PM.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 02:33 PM
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A few years back I know that they were prohibitively expensive. Ulrich(the old man) railed on Putnam for their placement of armco(after his son hit it hard). All tracks have some spots more dangerous than others, Blackhawk has several between the armco and the close trees. I've never been comfortable there. Most tracks are set up for cars, bikes are secondary and aren't catered to.

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Most tracks are set up for cars, bikes are secondary and aren't catered to.

Do cars benefit from air fences as much as bikes do, if at all?
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
Do cars benefit from air fences as much as bikes do, if at all?
I don't think so. If you had some $$$$$$ you could buy several sections and rent it out to various trackday and racing organization though...now there's a cool business to be in!



http://www.airfence.com/

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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a lot of unanswered questions isnt it?


anyway, i was reading and i think there the main program for the air fences https://secure.echoalley.com/actionfund/


didn't notice a e-mail so i can send them a link. so i called and spoke to brian and asked to whom i would need to speak to or an e-mail address so i can send a question to.

he asked what about? i basically in short form asked the above.

after a 2 minute delay i was given this e-mail address [email protected]ingworld.com which i am now sending my whole post to them and see if i can get some answers.



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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:18 PM
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I doubt if there is a governing body that inspects racetracks in general but rather the individual racing org makes those decisions for themselves. Remember when the AMA just said no to Joliet? Similarly Moto GP will only race at Laguna Seca in the US currently(and I don't know if they still will) based on safety of the layouts.

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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for what its worth, i sent this. i will update when i hear something. till then please share or discuss your thoughts aswell.

--------------------------

Air fence program, and some questions i have.

Hi, my name is Ken and happen to own a small website in which i asked a question about these types of issues, and i am wondering what insight you can share with me on or off the record.

i am VERY involved in the motorcyclist community at large and had my time on the track for over 4 years. i have donated to this program, i also have gave my time and efforts and my websites availability to host and advertise for this cause in the past.

https://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com...ad.php?t=73676

as you can see i have some concerns and to why.

any info would be greatly appreciated.



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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:30 PM
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I don't know anything about racetrack regulations. But with Nascar. Nascar pretty much has the racetracks meet their safety guidelines and nascar requires the raceteams to setup cars/safety equipment to their specs.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:44 PM
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The answer is money.


The racetracks do not do it.

The racing organizations are concerned about it (AMA, WERA, CCS, NESBA)
but still they schedule events on tracks with safety issues and do not
force the issue.

Compettitors / members are concerned but only have so much sway..
"if it's too dangerous, don't ride" but someone always does.


Airfence does not work for cars..... they just kind of pop it, it's
designed for riders specifically.


All the above is why the Roadracing World action fund is such a cool
deal.... it allows the riders to rise above the politics and do something
for themselves taht the racetrack owners and organizations have not.


Props to NESBA for getting behind the fund-raising.

Props to CLSB members for showing up at the Chili Cookoff last year.


Y'all come again....labor day weekend.


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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLARNEY View Post
The answer is money.


The racetracks do not do it.

The racing organizations are concerned about it (AMA, WERA, CCS, NESBA)
but still they schedule events on tracks with safety issues and do not
force the issue.

Compettitors / members are concerned but only have so much sway..
"if it's too dangerous, don't ride" but someone always does.


Airfence does not work for cars..... they just kind of pop it, it's
designed for riders specifically.


All the above is why the Roadracing World action fund is such a cool
deal.... it allows the riders to rise above the politics and do something
for themselves taht the racetrack owners and organizations have not.


Props to NESBA for getting behind the fund-raising.

Props to CLSB members for showing up at the Chili Cookoff last year.


Y'all come again....labor day weekend.


Tom
i hear you and lets talk more about that i but see things to correct you in some misstating facts on something. 2 isuues.




1.yes major props to Bob from nesba getting and giving to this program to help the cause. as well as other organizations.

2.also thanks to CLSB members and nesba members and joint members of both also any one out there in any club or none club, thank you for giving to this cause.

now that i have this out the way. how SURE are you about what you know?
have you had any track owners or management staff of a course say out right.
WE WILL NOT purchase them and increase the safety factor of the track for motorcyclist. we do not want to spend the money on it!


is that what you heard? and who from? or are you assuming the same thing as i. that the tracks do not want to do more then what they have to which is bare minimum of legally preconceived "general provisions" were put in place to help aid, and there wasn't total negligence regard. "otherwise law suits" as well as the bottom line "money"



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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 04:59 PM
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Shit this is the first im hearing of Dustin crashing, he really helped me alot.

Every racetrack i've been to, riding or not, i signed a release of liability.
I'm sure all of you have as well.

From what i understand, which is only hearsay, a 10' long section of airfence costs 5 grand. Once it is used, it is garbage.

Who foots the bill to replace it?

I think the main problem with racetrack safety is, as others stated, money.
Hardly anyone outside of friends and family come to watch local CCS or WERA races.

Unfortunately, as fantastic as motorbike racing is to watch, it has not caught the eye of the general public. I think Daytona group (or whatever they are called) Saw this and thought they could bring it to a wider audience.

If they can do 1/2 of what they did with nascar, i think there will be a great deal more rider saftey features available trickling down to club level racing.

The way i see it, someone needs to produce and manufacture air fence much more cheaply. If it is 5k per section, thats friggin insane.

Maybe we can just glue some blow-up love dolls together, I bet G2G has a bunch in his garage
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 05:23 PM
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What makes me crazy is why in the Hell the factories don't contribute to airfence funds. I understand why they wouldn't help out at say Blackhawk, but at Road America? There should be four fucking miles of airfence at Road A that reads Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, and Suzuki.

If Ben Spies, or any factory rider, puts himself into a wall at triple digit speeds their season, and possibly their entire career is over. What's a hundred thousand dollars to Honda North America? Chump change, it's even a write off for advertising. I can not understand why they don't line the AMA tracks with airfence. What the fucking fuck?!?!

Rant over, you may proceed.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 05:27 PM
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Good point Monster
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 06:29 PM
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Ken,
One point that needs to be made from the questions you posed is the LAST thing you want is some government agency coming in and taking control of the safety aspects of racing...especially motorcycle racing.
The AMA and some promoters (IMDA for example) has been slowly acquiring airfence to be used instead of haybales in dirt track at places like the Springfield Mile. It is re-usable, but it requires proper care and handling. One of the biggest problems is that ALL of the road race tracks cater to cars. Airfence really is not a help in the prevention of injuries to car racers. Track days and motorcycle racing doesn't produce enough revenue to justify the expense of airfence. So it falls to the promoters, teams, riders and even the fans to provide..."God bless the child who's got his own"...A good portion of the airfence that travels the dirt track circuit was donated!
I believe in the stuff...I clobbered the crash wall at Sycamore Speedway back in the early '70's when they had weekly bike races, no haybales and no airfence (didn't exist) and didn't walk for three weeks and could only walk with crutches for another 10 weeks. I limped for at least a year after that! I hit haybales a few times, they helped, but it still hurt... Henry Wiles, National #17 and three time winner at Peoria and 2 time Springfield Short track & TT winner was sponsored by a very close friend...he hit the airfence on the mile a couple of years ago and he told me he thinks he'd be dead if it were not for the airfence!
You show me where I can donate to help the road racers get airfence and I'll give what I can, but unless it gets drastically reduced in price, the devil will have icicles on his horns before the tracks pop for it!
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 07:45 PM
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The AMA is too cheap to pay for it too.... and for all the bitching of
the riders safety issues are resolved slowly.


Why do we even race motorcyles at Daytona ? It's insane !


Ken, a couple of conversations around airfence and a lot of reading
of racing related editorial and magazines.


The tracks don't want to spend the money.... yet the orgs still book events.


The orgs don't want to spend the money.... yet the riders still sign up.


A boycott would be nice, but they would just backfill the schedule with
car events and riders would be SOL.

In the end it's down to us to fix it ourselves..... the riders.


I have followed this issue closely for years and have supported the
Airfence Action Fund almost since it's inception personally and via NITRO.


Tom


For the record, airfence is reusable as long as it is not punctured by
the impact of the bike / rider..... it can be re-inflated.



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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 08:00 PM
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The FIM has a safety commission that inspects the tracks for their safety worthiness. I saw something a couple weeks ago about them being at Indianapolis inspecting the pit entrance/exits and some of the turns around the walls. They were concerned about the pit exit apparenty, but IMS was making the suggested changes.

Obviously a trackday org isnt bringing the kind of money that a MotoGP race would bring, and I think that's the answer to most of the questions. I also remember reading that if Road America would move the bridge, MotoGP or WSBK might have a date there. I guess there needs to be a Trackday Safety Council.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 08:33 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the safety commission for the FIM started by the riders? There are obviously enough riders combined throughout all the different road racing sanctions that feel the same as everyone here. Why not work to institute some sort of ISO for regulations with tracks? You work with insurance companies that in turn help enforce that tracks have certain safety features in place. It'd raise costs for things, but then again, what's more important?

I realize to a certain degree it's wishful thinking, but it could work.

Andrew
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 09:59 PM
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it goes back to my central argument..... money.


If Rossi won't compete ( or worse gets injured at an unsafe venue ) there
is no show..... no show..... no gate, no souvenirs, no advertising, no TV.

Thats a problem .... OK ..... must protect talent.

The bigger the investment in a series the more likely they have the pull
to institute change...and on to WSBK...and AMA.... and WERA .... and
CCS and trackday orgs.

The further down the food chain you are, the less actual sway you have
with the venue before that just say ..... tough shit.


Imagine complaining to CCS that a track was unsafe as an armature....
they would say thanks.... and if you persisted the eventual response
would be ....fine, don't race then.... lot's of others will.

Not to say everyone ( or anyone ) is unconcerned.... but to say that
they are as concerned as they can be on a budget.


I like the thought of a track-day safety council....... trouble is, the answer to
solutions requiring money would be, fine...... don't ride here, we'll sell a car event.


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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2008, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
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everyone and my homie tom, thanks for the info sharing of what you know.

i tell ya its sucks! i think what we need to is draw some major attention to this. the media!

and most of all track day riders, racers and pro's unite and drive attention to these issues. if some how this was to come about i tell you i could see new tracks being built to fit the needs of motorcycle racing and then sure enough other track will follow suit! if not they loose out on the money!

and if there was some governing safety counsels that mandates they can not until such provisions are in place. even better.



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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseys View Post
...i tell ya its sucks! i think what we need to is draw some major attention to this. the media!...
With all due respect, Ken...this is the second to last thing you want, (second only to government involvement) because this would bring every hand wringing "safety nazi" in the country out of the woodwork screaming for a BAN on track days and possibly even road racing!
This is something that has to be dealt with within the community of track riders and racers. Outsiders will only complicate matters and make the situation worse!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTimeBiker View Post
With all due respect, Ken...this is the second to last thing you want, (second only to government involvement) because this would bring every hand wringing "safety nazi" in the country out of the woodwork screaming for a BAN on track days and possibly even road racing!
This is something that has to be dealt with within the community of track riders and racers. Outsiders will only complicate matters and make the situation worse!
+1

This is why you sign a waiver when doing a trackday and or racing , if you feel that the track is unsafe .... then don't go . Trackdays and or racing is a risk we choose to do , with knowing before hand if a crash happens it could be bad even very bad . Too "mandate" laws (safety) at these events will in time just shut down most tracks .
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2008, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTimeBiker View Post
With all due respect, Ken...this is the second to last thing you want, (second only to government involvement) because this would bring every hand wringing "safety nazi" in the country out of the woodwork screaming for a BAN on track days and possibly even road racing!
This is something that has to be dealt with within the community of track riders and racers. Outsiders will only complicate matters and make the situation worse!







Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTimeBiker View Post
Ken,
One point that needs to be made from the questions you posed is the LAST thing you want is some government agency coming in and taking control of the safety aspects of racing...especially motorcycle racing.
The AMA and some promoters (IMDA for example) has been slowly acquiring airfence to be used instead of haybales in dirt track at places like the Springfield Mile. It is re-usable, but it requires proper care and handling. One of the biggest problems is that ALL of the road race tracks cater to cars. Airfence really is not a help in the prevention of injuries to car racers. Track days and motorcycle racing doesn't produce enough revenue to justify the expense of airfence. So it falls to the promoters, teams, riders and even the fans to provide..."God bless the child who's got his own"...A good portion of the airfence that travels the dirt track circuit was donated!
I believe in the stuff...I clobbered the crash wall at Sycamore Speedway back in the early '70's when they had weekly bike races, no haybales and no airfence (didn't exist) and didn't walk for three weeks and could only walk with crutches for another 10 weeks. I limped for at least a year after that! I hit haybales a few times, they helped, but it still hurt... Henry Wiles, National #17 and three time winner at Peoria and 2 time Springfield Short track & TT winner was sponsored by a very close friend...he hit the airfence on the mile a couple of years ago and he told me he thinks he'd be dead if it were not for the airfence!
You show me where I can donate to help the road racers get airfence and I'll give what I can, but unless it gets drastically reduced in price, the devil will have icicles on his horns before the tracks pop for it!


what roll does the AMA play in part with safety aspects when it comes to road course safety dealings with the race tracks?

and what is the AMA doing currently with this program or to work with or mandate more air fencing provided by race tracks! or the AMA?




Last edited by Odysseys; 06-07-2008 at 03:59 PM.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2008, 08:31 PM
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I don't have an exact answer for you, Ken. But, I will contact some people in the dirt track community and get as much info as I can.
I do know this though, The AMA has very little to do with road racing now because they sold it off to the Daytona Motorsports Group. Things are in transition this year and next year the AMA will be out completely, the only thing remaining will be the name AMA which will be used for the sole purpose of continuity. Roger Edmonson, the founder of CCS is now in charge.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-07-2008, 09:04 PM
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FYI is a bit over $1000 per section for the ones BHF has and pretty sure it comes from England unless Tom in security found another maker.

Turn 2 at BHF isnt exactly setup great for the use of the air fence. Air fences works best when its perpenicular to the crashing rider. Turn 2 would be parallel if they placed it like they do in 4 and 5. They had the air fence set up staggered in 2 on the outside. Dustin went under one and kept going to the wall. IMO the bag slowed him down enough to prevent even worse injuries than he has right now. I was in 3 when he crashed. I was one of the 2 workers that ran down to him.

Been hearing stuff that the new owner wants to redo turn 2's runoff area and move the fence back. Dont know how much of a problem the DNR will be with that. Right now turns 1 and 7 runoffs are being reconfigured for more room. Theres alot of work that needs to be done to BHF. From the problems in some corners where the pavement is torn up to getting a whole new radio system since the one we have now is a POS (not enough working radios, no racing). Unfortunately this stuff cant be done overnight.


Ken the AMA has their own fences and they take them around to the tracks. Whether they have enough to do all the tracks may be another story.
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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-09-2008, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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i got this e-mail in response to my questions. for now since i dont have approval to share who it was from and my latest questions to be more exact on some further questions i have. some food for thought.

discuss.

---------------------------------

Hi Ken -

Your question is basically, that if the technology (soft barrier such as Airfence) is available to make racing safer, why isn't its use mandated?

It seemed ridiculous to us as well when 7 years ago we were told by the AMA at Daytona at the beginning of the season in March, that Airfence was not in the budget and that the next AMA board financial meeting wasn't even until the following August, when they might start thinking about it. John Ulrich wrote this editorial which started the Airfence campaign and ultimately led to the Roadracing World Action Fund, a non-profit organization dedicated to motorcycle racing safety education.


http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=11273


The use of soft barriers is so much more prevalent these days thanks to the Action Fund. Just as people had to be educated as to the value of wearing seatbelts and helmets, so do people need to be educated as to the value of soft barriers, that they save lives and injuries, and that tire walls and haybales just won't do.

The Roadracing World Action Fund works to get as much soft barrier out there as possible, and many racing organizations and race tracks have bought and deployed soft barriers as well on their own. It's getting better.

The only thing I would recommend is to do what our motto says to do: Insist on Safety. Make noise. Let race organizers and track owners know that they are expected to do the right thing.

I'm not sure if I answered your question. Thanks for helping the cause.


Sincerely,



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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-09-2008, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTimeBiker View Post
I don't have an exact answer for you, Ken. But, I will contact some people in the dirt track community and get as much info as I can.
I do know this though, The AMA has very little to do with road racing now because they sold it off to the Daytona Motorsports Group. Things are in transition this year and next year the AMA will be out completely, the only thing remaining will be the name AMA which will be used for the sole purpose of continuity. Roger Edmonson, the founder of CCS is now in charge.
thanks.



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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-09-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sklossmonster View Post
What makes me crazy is why in the Hell the factories don't contribute to airfence funds. I understand why they wouldn't help out at say Blackhawk, but at Road America? There should be four fucking miles of airfence at Road A that reads Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, and Suzuki.

If Ben Spies, or any factory rider, puts himself into a wall at triple digit speeds their season, and possibly their entire career is over. What's a hundred thousand dollars to Honda North America? Chump change, it's even a write off for advertising. I can not understand why they don't line the AMA tracks with airfence. What the fucking fuck?!?!

Rant over, you may proceed.
IMO, the responsibility belongs to the race track. It should be part of the cost of doing business.

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-09-2008, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock View Post
IMO, the responsibility belongs to the race track. It should be part of the cost of doing business.
thats my belief as it is there business.

mind you, i applaud all efforts to help rider safety and this is one of them. i have had to many friends get hurt, or die on the track.

something needs to change.

this is only my 1st step in understanding WHY who is dropping the ball.

what can help PUSH to get done for these issues

in the mean time bring more awareness to it.

and if ultimately if we are told, go fuck yourself. a group of air bag fences to be bought and used solely for the use of there events, IE: ccs,wera,nesba,stt, etc.


if its not provided by the business, what are they gonna say, remove that safety equipment from our track while your renting its use?

i would hate to see it happen, but i would look forward to the HELL they would bring on themselfs.



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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 06-09-2008, 04:47 PM
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It is my understanding that the tracks don't provide the air fence because the AMA needs the tracks more then the tracks need the AMA.

I think race track owners are cheap greedy bastards who don't give 2 shits about rider safety. They only makes changes if FIM approval is needed so they can make more money. They don't do it because it will prevent someone's death.

And Ken, don't you think that shit goes through my mind everytime my brother hits the track?

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