Tell me about 2-stroke track bikes - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Tell me about 2-stroke track bikes

Yes, they're light, they handle awesome, they don't engine brake, and you need to maintain corner speed. But what else? How would you ride them differently than a 4T? I've been told there are engine management concerns, and that "riding it like a 600" will make them blow up. Can anyone elaborate?
What about costs to run one compared to a 600? Both "priller cup bikes and/or full on TZ/RS 250?

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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 05:57 PM
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you`ll constantly be talking about jets lmao

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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:00 PM
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So, this is a thread for 5Axis to drool all over. RacingXTC7 will hop in as well.

Aprilia Cup Bike is a factory built 2-stroke race bike based on the street legal version. Translation, it has a little bit of the best of both worlds. It lasts a lot longer between rebuilds than the TZ.

The TZ is a purpose built race bike. Period. Expect to rebuild it every weekend or every other weekend. Where is Chump when ya need him?
The TZ will CRUSH an Aprilia Cup on the track, no comparison, but you pay for it in jetting, rebuilds, top-ends, etc.... If I had a mechanic, I'd ride a TZ.

I'll look for a link on my first two stroke experience. I bought one as soon as I could find one afterwards. They are ADDICTIVE!!

Here ya go: https://www.chicagolandsportbikes.com...ight=addictive

By the way, do NOT come off the throttle mid corner... can you say TUCK?!?

Anyhow, the RPM range is VERY short, you are a shifting maniac on a two-stroke, and you have to have everything optimized for the track and the weather/temp. As finicky as they are, they are a total hoot. No where as simple as the ride and put away wet mentality of 4-strokes, they require care and feeding, and an owner that likes to do those special things for the bike.

2-Stroke - You HAVE to really LEARN how to ride, the bike is not gonna make up for your mistakes.
SV - Rail and it is forgiving
F4i - Rail and it is forgiving with 30 more HP
Modern 600s - They can outride almost anyone, be careful
Liter bikes - Be ready for the view from up there. THE hardest bike to learn to ride on, and THE hardest bike to master.
Beyond - Go to the drag strip or the bike show. Worthless on the track and VERY dangerous.

Two-Stroke - The I can't stop smiling, I am riding until I run out of gas type of experience. And you wanna have real fun? Put a group of 2-strokes and SVs out there and stay out of the way in the turns!! TONS O FUN!!

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Last edited by Wink; 07-29-2008 at 06:07 PM.
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
So, this is a thread for %Axis to drool al over. RacingXTC7 will hop in as well.

Aprilia Cup Bike is a factory built 2-stroke race bike based on the street legal version. Translation, it has a little bit of the best of both worlds. It lasts a lot longer between rebuilds than the TZ.

The TZ is a purpose built race bike. Period. Expect to rebuild it every weekend or every other weekend. Where is Chump when ya need him?
The TZ will CRUSH an Aprilia Cup on the track, no comparison, but you pay for it in jetting, rebuilds, top-ends, etc.... If I had a mechanic, I'd ride a TZ.

I'll look for a link on my first two stroke experience. I bought one as soon as I could find one afterwards. They are ADDICTIVE!!
Good stuff. How does your Aprilia compare to your 4T's as far as running costs? I'd imagine tires are less, but is that offset by the maintenance?

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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:06 PM
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Bring ear plugs for the entire paddock. I'd hate to park next to the guys tuning their 2 smokes.

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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:21 PM
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You will constantly be wrenching on and tuning the machine. Do you think you can deal with that Rob? I remember you cursing and pissing a fit over your YZF250 not starting and you not being able to remove the spark plug. You will learn a lot about wrenching owning one. Same thing with a 2 stroke dirtbike.

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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
You will constantly be wrenching on and tuning the machine. Do you think you can deal with that Rob? I remember you cursing and pissing a fit over your YZF250 not starting and you not being able to remove the spark plug. You will learn a lot about wrenching owning one. Same thing with a 2 stroke dirtbike.
haha, yeah, I remember that POS not starting. I've learned alot about wrenching in the past few seasons, especially doing most of the work on the SMR myself.
I'm looking into a 2T dirty bike as well. The shop has a pretty nice 200 I can get for cheap, and run for cheap compared to a later-model 250f.

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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 06:30 PM
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Ask Hix about the smell too. I smoked him out in the old tech shed at blackhawk

It's a different ride like Wink said. I'm just starting out on mine. I really expect it to be a good tool to improve my riding.

I posted some initial impressions here. http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=157238

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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 07:28 PM
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Shifting
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TUNING

Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
TUNING
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
TUNING
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
TUNING
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
Shifting
TUNING



Like that.



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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
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Can anyone elaborate?
What about costs to run one compared to a 600? Both "priller cup bikes and/or full on TZ/RS 250?

The only correct answer is "it depends". My experience is with cup bikes so I will stick mostly to those. As Wink stated, they were based off a street bike and left unmodified,they are pretty reliable. There are milage/ wear limits to pistons and cranks. The standard line is trackbike= 1/2 the limit. Frankly, I don't remember the numbers. You could look them up on Aprilia forum. As a practicle matter, I do a top end after every season and a full rebuild every-other. Pistons are about $90 and a crank is about $650 add in a few gaskets and your done.

Production class racing was very big in other parts of the world and it is easy to get sucked into the world of "kit" parts and all sorts of cool goodies. For a large sum of money, I do know of one Aprilia cup bike that could run with a TZ250, but then it also had the same or less of a lifespan at that level of tune.

The question of technique and blowing things up.. hmm
The only thing that comes to mind is on a pre mix bike. It is bad to slam the throttle shut at the end of a long straight because the fuel is A) the lubricant and B) the fuel mix also cools the pistons. So you really never come off the throttle. Rumour was that KTM's fuel injection was set up to do this because Stoner had a habbit of slamming the throttles closed and it was blowing up motors. I'm not convinced that it is much of a issue at our level.



This also applies to dyno pulls. Make the run up, then pull the clutch in, do not let the drum spin the motor in a "dry" condition.





Honda RS250 GP bike.. wow A friend let me ride his and yummy.. but even in a detuned state the owner would get 2 track days out of a set of pistons =$$$$


They are great bikes if you enjoy relaxing while fiddling about with mechanical stuff.

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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5AXIS View Post
The only correct answer is "it depends". My experience is with cup bikes so I will stick mostly to those. As Wink stated, they were based off a street bike and left unmodified,they are pretty reliable. There are milage/ wear limits to pistons and cranks. The standard line is trackbike= 1/2 the limit. Frankly, I don't remember the numbers. You could look them up on Aprilia forum. As a practicle matter, I do a top end after every season and a full rebuild every-other. Pistons are about $90 and a crank is about $650 add in a few gaskets and your done.

Production class racing was very big in other parts of the world and it is easy to get sucked into the world of "kit" parts and all sorts of cool goodies. For a large sum of money, I do know of one Aprilia cup bike that could run with a TZ250, but then it also had the same or less of a lifespan at that level of tune.

The question of technique and blowing things up.. hmm
The only thing that comes to mind is on a pre mix bike. It is bad to slam the throttle shut at the end of a long straight because the fuel is A) the lubricant and B) the fuel mix also cools the pistons. So you really never come off the throttle. Rumour was that KTM's fuel injection was set up to do this because Stoner had a habbit of slamming the throttles closed and it was blowing up motors. I'm not convinced that it is much of a issue at our level.



This also applies to dyno pulls. Make the run up, then pull the clutch in, do not let the drum spin the motor in a "dry" condition.





Honda RS250 GP bike.. wow A friend let me ride his and yummy.. but even in a detuned state the owner would get 2 track days out of a set of pistons =$$$$


They are great bikes if you enjoy relaxing while fiddling about with mechanical stuff.
Now those are exactly the answers I was looking for! REP!

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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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Forgot to ask, how 'bout tires at A pace?

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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-29-2008, 09:18 PM
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Okay tires...hmm I have been doing about 1 set for 18-20 days SC1 F&R and they still had meat on them. I gave them to Wink.



Let me add..
Jetting on a stock or stock-ish bike is mostly set it and forget it. There might be a HP two if you are ambitious, but for me going faster is mostly a function of me learning how to ride better. I have not had to change jetting since I have had mine, ever.
Until
The more you delve into the dark world of tuner parts and tuning, well you then have to tune.

And as I have learned more, I am getting more comfortable with tuning and have started playing around more.. and more is good right..

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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 12:01 AM
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18 DAYS?? Even on the front? Sweet jumping Jesus on a pogo stick...

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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 12:25 AM
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Hey, I ran the tires he gave me and they are still running damn good. Love the tire life!

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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 12:30 AM
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For realibility just get the streetbikes(tzr,rgv or nsr) and it wont cost you much when rebuilding comnpare to the gp bikes. The easiest to derestrict is the nsr250, just couple of wire splice you'll get 61 hp . TZR is the hardest but if you put some tz cylinders and other parts it'll go fast.Rgv has the same engine to priller RS250.
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 06:15 AM Thread Starter
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18 days?!?!?!?!?

There is the cost of a piston a couple times over compared to 600's tire budget!

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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5AXIS View Post
It is bad to slam the throttle shut at the end of a long straight because the fuel is A) the lubricant and B) the fuel mix also cools the pistons. So you really never come off the throttle.
Good info. Thank god I didn't blow anything up the first day.

As for tires, don't forget that you pay less for them too since you are only buying a 160 rear. I also expect brakes to need to be replace a lot less than a 600 also.

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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 09:51 AM
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18 DAYS?? Even on the front? Sweet jumping Jesus on a pogo stick...
Yeah it really works out to something like 1 1/2 sets a year. Maybe when I get a bit faster like Gu, I'll be up to 2 full sets LOL

The front seems to get slightly more of a workout than the rear. I am picking up a new set from Turn One http://www.turnoneracing.com/ at Gingerman. I am going to try going with SC2s F&R for Barber this August. The SC1s were a little greasy in 100+ degree weather down there last summer.

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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:28 AM
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Most of the shit you hear about GP bikes are just myths. Most often from people who have never actually ridden or owned one. I'll break down what it cost me to run my bike.

Top end(pistons, rings, wrist pin, bearings) X 2= $220 every 300 miles
Crank= $1,200 every 1,200 miles
Clutch= $50 every 3 race starts
Fuel=cheapeast is VP C12 which is close to $80 for 5 gallons now
Premix=$20 a quart at 30:1 and as much as 25:1

Working on the bike is the easiest thing about owning a GP bike. These bikes are designed and to be worked on. You won't find one single part where you scratch your head wondering what the fuck the engineers were thinking like you all do with street bikes. I can literally do an entire top end in under an hour and a bottom end in about 3. Try that with a 4 stroke.

As far as jetting goes, once you have a baseline set on the jetting, you almost never have to change the jetting. You basically set the powerjet, pilot, or the needle and forget about it. Only thing you will have to change from time to time are the mains and the nozzle as the air density changes but that's very easy and takes about 15 minutes to do both carbs. Of course things start getting alot more complicated once you start messing with ignition timing, deck height, squish etc but you really shouldn't mess with that stuff unless you have a solid understanding of what each change does because you can take a perfectly good bike and make it unrideable.
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post #21 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:32 AM
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Rob.. riding it like a 600 will not blow it up. You might not have any fun but it definately won't blow it up. You know how 600 guys complain about having no power when a 1000 goes by them? That's how 250 guys feel when a 2000 R6 goes by. hahaha
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post #22 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:32 AM
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Where can one find an RS250 or TZ250? Aren't they expensive as shit?

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post #23 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:33 AM
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Where can one find an RS250 or TZ250? Aren't they expensive as shit?
2009 year will be the last year Honda or Yamaha will make either bikes. Less than 20 from each. It'll cost you about $22000 for a new one.
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post #24 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:34 AM
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Thanks for chiming in with actual numbers Chunk. A TZ250 is still somewhere in my future. The Ape has been a great learning experience so far.

Are you ever coming back?

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post #25 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:36 AM
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Thanks for chiming in with actual numbers Chunk. A TZ250 is still somewhere in my future. The Ape has been a great learning experience so far.

Are you ever coming back?


shhhh don't tell no one but I miss my TZ so much I put in an order for a 2009.
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post #26 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:37 AM
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shhhh don't tell no one but I miss my TZ so much I put in an order for a 2009.
mums the word.. your secret is safe with me

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post #27 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:40 AM
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mums the word.. your secret is safe with me
hahahaha
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post #28 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:40 AM
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2009 year will be the last year Honda or Yamaha will make either bikes. Less than 20 from each. It'll cost you about $22000 for a new one.
Do you buy them from this place? This is the only place I know that sells them. I'm sure there are others, but this is the only one I know.

http://www.rscycles.com/250cc.htm

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post #29 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Wink View Post

2-Stroke - You HAVE to really LEARN how to ride, the bike is not gonna make up for your mistakes.
SV - Rail and it is forgiving
F4i - Rail and it is forgiving with 30 more HP
Modern 600s - They can outride almost anyone, be careful
Liter bikes - Be ready for the view from up there. THE hardest bike to learn to ride on, and THE hardest bike to master.
Beyond - Go to the drag strip or the bike show. Worthless on the track and VERY dangerous.
This is true!
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post #30 of 51 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 10:42 AM
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What do you guys think of this bad boy? Not a GP bike, but cool as fuck.

http://www.rolandsands.com/bikes.html

<- Erwin

CCS AM #611

"Nigga if you ride, nigga you gon fall!" - Katt Williams

Ashwin Gopal, David Ryan, Baby Ronin Tyler, John George, Chris Kotacka aka 'Arch', Eva Grzegorczyk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob, Esq. View Post
image v. substance. Some people want to be motorcyclists, others just want to be seen as motorcyclists.
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