Body position question - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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Body position question

So I was having problems touching down peg, and other things, at Autobahn.
My question is this. Does a lighter rider have to hang off more to get the same result as a heavier rider?



Here is the outcome. I didn't even know it happened until Enes pointed it out to me.


I've already ordered some adjustable plates to raise the rear sets and will be removing my side stand for the next day. My last session I tried hanging off more, but I felt I had to hang off so much I was less in control of the bike.
What else can I do? Will turning up the preload help?

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post #2 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 11:22 PM
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have you lowered the bike "that will happen"

do you have your suspension sag setting set up for your weight? "if you dont you should"

actually i think its harder for a larger guy to push a bike around a track, we are packing more weight to keep the bike down and curb weight. i would think a lighter guy has it easier, none the less its all body to the inside, pushing on the bars and your LINE

another thing though that can cause that is, NOT leaning off the bike far enough. when i first started on the track, i was leaning the bike so far over to get through the corners until i put it all together with the help of some great nesba control riders.


here is a picture of me back in the day thinking i am a bad ass grinding my pegs away

fuck i cant find it, must be on a cd somewhere but i am to tired to look, ill find it tomorrow for ya



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post #3 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 11:23 PM
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maybe rearsets geared towards track-days would help? I'm not sure about it, but the sv seems like it would have lower footpegs than something made for track/racing

- Steve
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post #4 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 11:36 PM
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How many track days have you done?




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post #5 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 11:49 PM
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ken is right on the money. you need to make sure your bike is sprung for you. The sag and springs need to be set up correctly. You must have a pair of balls to get down that low with a bike not set up right. call ken at superbike he will set up your bike. 708 447 1440

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post #6 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-06-2008, 11:51 PM
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I have no track experience. but I will say, watching the bike races on tv, it looks like a majority of bike racers are small than 5'10"

I never had a shifter scrape. My pegs would be scraping or if I don't have my boots in correct position, they will be scraping asphalt.
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post #7 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taledarkside View Post
I have no track experience. but I will say, watching the bike races on tv, it looks like a majority of bike racers are small than 5'10"

I never had a shifter scrape. My pegs would be scraping or if I don't have my boots in correct position, they will be scraping asphalt.
If you have an extremely large set of testicals you can force an extreme lean angle on a bike without using proper body position.

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post #8 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
If you have an extremely large set of testicals you can force an extreme lean angle on a bike without using proper body position.
but that would put a lot of "avoidable" stress on the tires?

i was always under the impression that body position was related to less strain on the tires for grip. for me it just feels natural hanging off the bike, as if you didn't lean with it you would be upsetting the force of the bike.
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post #9 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 12:32 AM
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As far as setting up that SV, grasshopper is the man. I would take his and Ken's advice and make sure that its sprung correctly and that the sag is set for your weight. I'm thinking that rearsets would also help since the stockers are usually set pretty low for track riding.

As far as lightweight versus heavyweight riders and turning a bike on the the track, heavier guys like me (265-280lbs) need to maximize traction so I hang off the bike as much as possible to keep the bike on a large contact patch. Lighter riders can get away with more lean angle but as they increase in speed they also do what they can to maximize traction. It also depends on skill level, riding style, and the bike you're riding as your 650 handles corners different than my 1000. Body positioning also varies based on the seating position of your bike and the way your body is built. People have different ways of making a bike work around the racetrack. The trick is figuring out what works best for you.

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post #10 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 12:37 AM
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Nolan, you have it right man. Very very good. Thanks.

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post #11 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 04:46 AM
 
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I would add also not only body but foot position also. The ball of the foot or the inner part should be on the outer part of the peg so that the foot hangs off. When the knee touches the toes and knee together should be horizontal with each other. I have pics but im not that good with a computer. You can the use your toe slider as a measuring tool to realize how far the bike is leaning. We use are knees/toes for these reasons. Hope this helps. This will keep you from rubbing pegs.

Last edited by Wedgester; 08-07-2008 at 05:28 AM.
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post #12 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:23 AM
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I'm guessing by the questions he's asking, that he has onlt done one or two trackdays and a cr hasnt found him yet. you guys may be overwelming him with info here. also if what I say is true and he is running at B pace, suspension work beyond setting sag so the bike is safe is overkill. first things first he needs to get his body position down.

go put you bike on stands and practice, start from the bottom up,
  • rotate your inside foot 45 degrees into the turn (ball of your foot on the peg)
  • Knee out
  • ass crack on the very inside edge of the seat (only one cheek should be on bike)
  • now get your torso down, outside tit on inside of tank
  • outside arm relaxed, draped across tank being very gentle on the controls
  • inside arm, drop that elbow
  • put your head down where your mirror would normally be.

Do thus correctly you will use tons less lean angle and stop dragging parts.




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post #13 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:27 AM
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Got any pics of you on the bike. It would help in finding out what needs to be changed. Like ken said you might think your butts off the seat but your like 2 inches off.

I'm not short. I'm aerodynamically efficient.

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post #14 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
I'm guessing by the questions he's asking, that he has onlt done one or two trackdays and a cr hasnt found him yet. you guys may be overwelming him with info here. also if what I say is true and he is running at B pace, suspension work beyond setting sag so the bike is safe is overkill. first things first he needs to get his body position down.

go put you bike on stands and practice, start from the bottom up,
  • rotate your inside foot 45 degrees into the turn (ball of your foot on the peg)
  • Knee out
  • ass crack on the very inside edge of the seat (only one cheek should be on bike)
  • now get your torso down, outside tit on inside of tank
  • outside arm relaxed, draped across tank being very gentle on the controls
  • inside arm, drop that elbow
  • put your head down where your mirror would normally be.

Do thus correctly you will use tons less lean angle and stop dragging parts.
good stuff tony! you sound like hix
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post #15 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 08:59 AM
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I'm a light rider at 135lbs and have the same problem with scraping pegs and brake lever. My CR was behind be when I dragged knee and scraped pegs so he was able to give me feed back. He said I wasn't hiked out far enough. I felt I was but he said I need to get my butt and upper body out more. In my mind, I felt I was way way off the bike but in actuality he said I was barely off the bike. At least my footing was correct.


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post #16 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:01 AM
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I scraped my toe last night on the off-ramp to Portillo's. Yup, you guessed it, my ass was directly in the center of the seat. I know that if I was off the bike I wouldn't have dragged anything. And I have aftermarket rearsets.
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post #17 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:03 AM
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I have the same problem.

I can't figure out why I am hitting my toes down either. I worked with coaches all last weekend to try to figure out what the heck Im doing wrong.

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post #18 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:28 AM
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cat, we became lazy this weekend. not just us.

i have currently woodcrafts on the bike, and i dragged toe as well again. pushed me nicely to the outside. when i saw the few pics, i realized i got lazy with getting off the bike. it was too hot this weekend, but from the crashes i learn that if i'm gonna be lazy to get off the bike appropriately, i might as well not go out and ride.

i pick to get off the bike more!!!

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post #19 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah Blah Blah View Post
I'm a light rider at 135lbs and have the same problem with scraping pegs and brake lever. My CR was behind be when I dragged knee and scraped pegs so he was able to give me feed back. He said I wasn't hiked out far enough. I felt I was but he said I need to get my butt and upper body out more. In my mind, I felt I was way way off the bike but in actuality he said I was barely off the bike. At least my footing was correct.
Very common, people think they are hanging way off, when they are dead center of the bike, clench your ass cheeks if you feel anything but air under the inside one, your doing it wrong. and put your nose on the mirror, you wont drag hard parts anymore. if your doing all that perfectly, then you start dragging parts it's time for suspension mods.




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post #20 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:36 AM
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The picture he has posted does not look like an SV 650. Unless it is a newer one.
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post #21 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G2G View Post
The picture he has posted does not look like an SV 650. Unless it is a newer one.
looks like a newer one to me

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post #22 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 09:58 AM
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Did you ever go through the Novice class and do the hang off drill? They would have shown you exactly what Tony described. Next time grab a coach and we'll put you on your bike and go through it.

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post #23 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:06 AM
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Ball of foot on peg, ass crack on the inside edge of the seat, and outside shoulder to the gas cap. Stop a control rider in the pits to have them show you proper body position if need be... one thing you will learn is that when you are new, what feels to you like extremely exaggerated body position is usually still not correct.

Here's me during my early track days, thinking I was hanging off a lot cuz my butt was off the seat, but in reality I was crossed up to hell:

Click to open



Notice the body and head straight over the gas tank, butt not moved off the seat enough, and body too high up.


Here is a recent one, now this is bit of an exaggerated body position. When learning body position, I like to hang myself way out there, farther than you need to be. That way when you get up to speed and you aren't focusing 100% on body position, you will sort of naturally fall into a good position on the bike.

Click to open


You can see fundamental stuff, armpit on gas cap, ball of feet on the peg and butt halfway off the seat. And it's still a bit off, my shoulders should be twisted more to the inside of the corner.

Like this:


At no point should you be in less control of the bike hanging off that far, so if you get that sensation, you are probably hanging off the wrong way. Common problem is to stay high on the bike instead of dropping your upper body down on the tank, and that makes you stretch your arms out more to reach the handlebars and thus feel out of control... then again it seems to work for Mladin, so who knows?

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post #24 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:48 AM
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Lighter riders tend to get away with more when it comes to body positioning. I'm about 120lbs and as I picked up pace I had trouble with dragging pegs on my lowered F4i. I learned the hard way that lazy body positioning doesn't pay and I ended up on my head. Regardless of how big or small you are, having a bike set up correctly and working on good body positioning will make riding a LOT safer, track or street.
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post #25 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim View Post
Lighter riders tend to get away with more when it comes to body positioning. I'm about 120lbs and as I picked up pace I had trouble with dragging pegs on my lowered F4i. I learned the hard way that lazy body positioning doesn't pay and I ended up on my head. Regardless of how big or small you are, having a bike set up correctly and working on good body positioning will make riding a LOT safer, track or street.

yup, remember me on my full dress bagger hanging off going down finley




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post #26 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 11:04 AM
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How tall are you? I'm also about 135 but only 5'6" and it's more about geometry than weight. At my current speeds I have to exagerate my body position in order to get my knees closer to the ground than my toe/pegs. In fact, in this photo my right foot is actually not even on the outside peg. I really need to get adjustable rear sets so I can reach everything properly.



The women who are my height and shorter typically have longer legs, so the triangle shape from foot-knee-hip is different. I have dragged my pegs more than my knee sliders in the past.

Jump to 2:00 here and watch how I don't got off the right-side as much as I do on the left. See how my toe is closer than me knee through T3 than T4?



The trick is get get your body in a postiion where your knee is at that right spot so that the slider hitting tells you that you are 'out' of lean angle. And as far as I can tell that only comes with LOTS of practice (or an uncanny sense).

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post #27 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 11:19 AM
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Tony and GuDaddy hit it right on the head. Usually, novice riders will need to exaggerate their body position to get them close to where they need to be as the pace increases. Find a track coach to work with you in the pits with your bike on stands. Once you get a feel for where your body needs to be while you aren't moving, you'll have a better idea where you need to be once on the track. Once you nail down your body position you'll be able to safely use lean angle as the pace increases. With the proper body position, you shouldn't be dragging toes or hard parts until you reach full lean. And when you do, that's your cue that there is no more lean angle left.

This is me in turn 4. Granted I ran a little wide, but I'm barely scraping my toe slider at full race pace.


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post #28 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTony View Post
I'm guessing by the questions he's asking, that he has onlt done one or two trackdays and a cr hasnt found him yet. you guys may be overwelming him with info here. also if what I say is true and he is running at B pace, suspension work beyond setting sag so the bike is safe is overkill. first things first he needs to get his body position down.

go put you bike on stands and practice, start from the bottom up,
  • rotate your inside foot 45 degrees into the turn (ball of your foot on the peg)
  • Knee out
  • ass crack on the very inside edge of the seat (only one cheek should be on bike)
  • now get your torso down, outside tit on inside of tank
  • outside arm relaxed, draped across tank being very gentle on the controls
  • inside arm, drop that elbow
  • put your head down where your mirror would normally be.

Do thus correctly you will use tons less lean angle and stop dragging parts.
Sounds familiar. Learn well you have, young Skywalker.

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post #29 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
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Sounds familiar. Learn well you have, young Skywalker.
This thread reminded me of something else.. hmmm

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post #30 of 98 (permalink) Old 08-07-2008, 04:44 PM
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very intersting thread. lots of good info.

if you dont mind id like to ask a question that maybe someone could help me solve and may help others since ive heard of others having the same issue as me.

i have a tougher time with right hand turns than left hand turns. i have very long legs and arms and its hard for me to get good body position. i feel like ive gotten decent body position now but still dont feel comfortable. anyway, what i can feel is wrong with my right hand turn is that im pressing foward on the right bar along with working the throttle with my right hand. basically it seems that my left hand is just resting there. in the left hand turn im pressing with my left hand while throttling with my right. im thinking that this is why im having a harder time with right handers.

i experimented on the right hander and tried pulling with my left while throttle with my right. it doesnt feel right...but it does seem to help distribute the "work" to both arms vs just one arm (like is being done on a left hander). does anyone do this? any advice is appreciated. take a look at the pic below. what forces on the bars from which arm do you think he's using?


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