Body Positioning EXPERTS ONLY! - Chicagoland Sportbikes
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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Body Positioning EXPERTS ONLY!

So after my limited experience on the track (2 seasons) and finally getting comfortable with my knee on the deck. I have a few questions. I pose these to those "really in the know".

Most of my training up until now had been from NESBA CR's which has been absolutely awesome. However I see conflicting things from what I've learned and what I see (granted these are professionals). Let me preface by saying I agree with all that I've learned and it works, I just have questions from those who really know.

For instance, the head down method looks the best and obviously keeps weight where it needs to be, yet for the most part does not seem to be a must for the fast guys.

Also, the most recent, point your "dick (or vagina for the ladies) at the apex" seems to be somewhat untrue when you look at the degree at which the fast guys are hanging off (junk facing the bike, for most not the apex).

So I guess my question is this, are these drills, to help the noob get the form down, or is this ultimately the right way, or are there many correct ways, and these are the basics?

My biggest comfort and natural feeling problem, is the crotch to apex thing as it is more natural to "twist" your body and crotch towards the bike as you hang off, shoulders included (and as seen in a lot of these photos).

I would like to have advice from the Pro's and CR's (no offense meant to others) because I know I'm not the only one with these questions and some clarity I hope will benefit the greater good.

I have included pics to illustrate a little of what I'm talking about.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg benb1.jpg (49.4 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg bens1.jpg (37.3 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg chris1.jpg (125.7 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg freddie1.jpg (14.0 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg mladin1.jpg (13.7 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Nicky1.jpg (69.6 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by plotts; 09-05-2008 at 08:24 AM.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 01:45 AM
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i feel i am qualified enough to start giving you some advise but there is more advanced riders then me, but i use to run in the top 1/3 of advanced A before i got off the track day scene with nesba and use to run high 16's and 17's wioth a 2000 ZX9R pig of a bike.

form as you have been tought are keys to get you in the right (zone) once you fully understand, and (feel it working) you will start to alter into your own personal (feel) of what works (easier and best for you) once you understand the (feel for the desired result) you will differ slightly. at the moment the only way i can explain this is you will feel in total zen with the bike. the motions you input in the slightest will come full yield into how the bike reacts. but you will need input from time to time as we/ you do not get the amount of track time to consistently evaluate yourself. you will feel things from time to time that your stuck or something is different. but with video, and picture it will become easyier to see what YOU know what you did at that moment and what you are feeling at adjust and push through it.

or if you can have someone to mentor you that understands what your saying and feeling so you can be told to adjust this or that AND PUSH FOR IT.

once you understand the feel, the motion, the zen connection between you and the bike. its almost like closing your eyes and even if your sight was gone you know EXACTLY where you bike is at, the angle the speeds, and any input reaction, breaking, dragging, that is going around you.

1 can not simply reach a level. it will always be pushed no matter how perfect you are. reaching pro status is even something that is always under someone elses view and critiqued.

if you can talk to kevin at safety 1st he will share some thoughts with you.

for a while i had the pleasure of learning some things from the 4&6 team and some of the guys from safety 1st.

also the c.r.s from nesba, and also mike casey from motovid.

you can not simply progress by yourself. you need input you need suggestions and you need a coach that is more advanced to show and explain the guildlines and how to push every extreme past your current or new limits.

i hope this helps, and i hope you do well.

most of all know when to push and when to not be pushed.




Last edited by Odysseys; 09-05-2008 at 01:47 AM.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 07:02 AM
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Too funny. The pics that you selected are not representative of ANY of the riders shown except for Doohan. All of the other riders shown are at max lean on a 16.5 inch wheel. At that lean, you are required to pick up your head and shoulders and to bring the knee up. Shots of them both prior to and after the shots shown would have the head down, and back parallel to the centerline of the bike. FWIW, 16.5 inch wheels have TONS of side grip compared to the tires that we run on, but they still require the largest contact patch on exit and that is when the rider will be the farthest off.

Feel free to come over sometime and watch them race, I have all the recent races on DVR, and we can step by step through the turn. For example, the 250 guys virtually ALL hang of the bike, but they are in the crossed up positions shown above far longer than the 500 guys. Simply because they are trying to get back behind the windscreen as early as possible.

Sorry for the response, I am not an Expert racer, merely a slow track day guy.

===========
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 07:40 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. The pictures I used are not hard to find on these guys and plenty. What got me thinking about this was paging through motorcyclist magazine. There's a picture of Spies, like above and many pictures of the motojournalist's in the hanging off head up almost counterweighting looking style, just wondering why.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
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Wink, what's you opinion on where your hips should be pointed?
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 07:52 AM
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It's a public forum, you can't keep only the pros and CRs in here.

You can't have a blanket statement for every corner on every track for every rider on every type of wheel.

There are several ways to skin the cat.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 07:52 AM
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<---too slow for this thread.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
There are several ways to skin the cat.
werd. i have also found that as a early trackday rider i had good body position. now i suck because i only lean off the bike as much as i need to get around a certain corner.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plotts View Post
Wink, what's you opinion on where your hips should be pointed?
Head into the turn.
Shoulders follow head.
Hips follow shoulders.

When you lift the head back to center, it naturally does the opposite. It moves the shoulders in and closes the hips.

People comment that I get off the bike in corners, yet if people take a look at my pictures in corners on the RS250, they comment that I look crossed up (exactly like the pics above). It all depends on the turn, the tires, and the timing of the shot. As Drama said, plenty of way to skin the cat. Try it different ways and see what works best for you. There are plenty of fast riders that don't agree.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 08:12 AM
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You really shound be looking at videos and not still-frame photos. A single moment in time doesn't tell you anything about what the rider was doing; like in Nicky's picture he might be trying to avoid a crashing dePuniet directly in front of him

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort82 View Post
It's a public forum, you can't keep only the pros and CRs in here.

You can't have a blanket statement for every corner on every track for every rider on every type of wheel.

There are several ways to skin the cat.

Just trying to get good advice and not clutter up a potentially good resource for other riders. I do realize this is a public forum.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wink View Post
Head into the turn.
Shoulders follow head.
Hips follow shoulders.

When you lift the head back to center, it naturally does the opposite. It moves the shoulders in and closes the hips.

People comment that I get off the bike in corners, yet if people take a look at my pictures in corners on the RS250, they comment that I look crossed up (exactly like the pics above). It all depends on the turn, the tires, and the timing of the shot. As Drama said, plenty of way to skin the cat. Try it different ways and see what works best for you. There are plenty of fast riders that don't agree.
I would have to agree with Brian wholeheartedly.

To add... we are all "snowflakes" - what works for one person on one bike will not work for another on either the same or different bike. I think it's all about adopting the basics and then adjusting from there.

t
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 09:22 AM
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werd. you should always work on "great" body position first then adjust from there as you get better.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 09:38 AM
 
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Thats what I was going to say. Start with good body position so you have a strong foundation and go from there. I would rather go slower but have perfect position then faster with my but hanging off and chest on tank(the ususal taking a poop form). Just my oppionion. That way if you are slow you will still look good in the picture! Kidding asside im sure you get the point. Perfect position means less mistakes.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 11:45 AM
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I would comment but Im not a stt or nesba CR. Also Im too slow
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 01:02 PM
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^^^ it's true, this guy, he's as slow as they get
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G2G View Post
I would comment but Im not a stt or nesba CR. Also Im too slow
We've heard about you wheelie advice, rev it up, dump the clutch.

I must say your direct approach is effective though. On the Road America straight G2G, "what are you doing? Go faster, farther!" You were right.
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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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All good advice and insight. Will work on it tommorrow at Putnam.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 06:09 PM
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As stated above speed,tire condition,bike setup,type of corner all affect this start out with good tools and as speed increases you will adjust to all of these without even really thinking about it.Thats the great thing about being human we're all different and will have different styles.Take spyder84 for instance we gave him the tools and he used them in his way to absolutley crush the competion.

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-06-2008, 09:08 PM
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Let's hear it for Erik!! :

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