RAW Image Noise - Chicagoland Sportbikes
Chicagoland Sportbikes
 
Photographers Corner This forum is specifically for talk about camera's and photography. question about a camera or how to get that perfect shot post it here.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
RAW Image Noise

Quick question...

I'm working with my 1st SLR, a Canon 40D, and I've recently started making exposures in the RAW format. I purchased it right after Christmas and I've made 2884 images to date. Obviously a lot of garbage images that were just test shots or just learning settings and what not.

Question is this, are RAW images just "noisy"? Every single image that I zoom to 100 or 200% in digital photo professional (canon supplied software) has a ton of noise. By a ton I mean that it's really noticeable. I have a bunch of example images from all different lighting conditions, indoors, outdoors, high ISO, low ISO, all different f-stops and shutter speeds...I almost always shoot in manual. I realize that my camera isn't a full on $6k pro model, but I was expecting better results than what I've been getting.

So, you guys that have been using SLR's for a while, is removing noise from every single image just normal when working with RAW, or am I not doing something right?

Thanks for any feedback and sorry if I didn't include info shooting info. Just let me know if you need more info to better answer.

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 06:12 PM
Registered User
 
BusaDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville
Posts: 5,002
Location: Naperville
Sportbike: 2002 Turbo Hayabusa
Years Riding: Lost Track
How you found us: Tony
           
I don't recall that being a problem.

Dave
BusaDave is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 06:13 PM
Formerly RwS Films
 
PaulieRedCoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A-whore-ra, IL (88 & Farnsworth)
Posts: 1,284
Location: A-whore-ra, IL (88 & Farnsworth)
Sportbike: 2007 Yamaha FZ6, Snow Fiddy
Years Riding: 2
How you found us: Other
           
Send a message via AIM to PaulieRedCoat
Examples?

Is it happening at all ISO settings? edit: sorry just skimmed.

Shoulda got a Nikon. LOL. j/k I've never had any issues with noise in RAW so I can't really offer many suggestions.

Namaste

To the times I'll never remember, with the friends I'll never forget.

Last edited by PaulieRedCoat; 04-04-2008 at 06:15 PM.
PaulieRedCoat is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 06:20 PM
Serious inquiries only
 
Mort82's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Never-Neverland
Posts: 13,775
Location: Never-Neverland
Sportbike: Specialized Allez Comp; Gkotlin's SV650
Years Riding: Always learning
How you found us: Google
           
Send a message via AIM to Mort82
What RWS said.

Post an example and leave the meta data in it. I'm sure a good amount of us could help you out and lead you in the right direction.

It sounds like you ISO is high. the ISO number should be around 200-400 without getting TOO much noise.
Mort82 is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 06:27 PM
Registered User
 
jaysun0ne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal QC
Posts: 386
Location: Montreal QC
Sportbike: 91 hawkgt & 05 rc51
Years Riding: 8
How you found us: fellow rider mvrc51
           
i got a canon g6 (not a SLR) but it happens to me about 50% of the time in low light

and more often when in RAW size
never been able to figure it out my self.
jaysun0ne is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 07:04 PM
Serious inquiries only
 
Mort82's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Never-Neverland
Posts: 13,775
Location: Never-Neverland
Sportbike: Specialized Allez Comp; Gkotlin's SV650
Years Riding: Always learning
How you found us: Google
           
Send a message via AIM to Mort82
I'm guessing your point and shoot has a noise reducer when compressed into a Jpeg.

In other words, jpeg is better for low light.
Mort82 is offline  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 07:50 PM
Registered User
 
BusaDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville
Posts: 5,002
Location: Naperville
Sportbike: 2002 Turbo Hayabusa
Years Riding: Lost Track
How you found us: Tony
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysun0ne View Post
i got a canon g6 (not a SLR) but it happens to me about 50% of the time in low light

and more often when in RAW size
never been able to figure it out my self.
Longer exposures and higher ISO values will both accumate more noise for different reasons. Longer exposure allows the noise of the sensor to accumulate while the higher sensitivity amplifies the noise. Naturally the combination creates a double-whammy (high ISO + long exposure).

The image processor probably filters this noise in JPEG mode to some extent while in RAW mode it does not. The advantage of RAW is that you have complete control over the post-processing. In JPEG mode the camera makes an educated guess what processing to do (along with some settable parameters).

For longer exposures there's a mode that can take two pictures and compare them to eliminate noise. I haven't tried this out. It's only really good for still shots. I have no idea how it would look on motion.

p.s. I shoot in JPEG Large/Fine probably 99% of the time. I only use RAW when I want to do ALL the post-processing myself.

Dave

Last edited by BusaDave; 04-04-2008 at 07:52 PM.
BusaDave is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 09:26 PM
Registered User
 
jaysun0ne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal QC
Posts: 386
Location: Montreal QC
Sportbike: 91 hawkgt & 05 rc51
Years Riding: 8
How you found us: fellow rider mvrc51
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaDave View Post
Longer exposures and higher ISO values will both accumate more noise for different reasons. Longer exposure allows the noise of the sensor to accumulate while the higher sensitivity amplifies the noise. Naturally the combination creates a double-whammy (high ISO + long exposure).

The image processor probably filters this noise in JPEG mode to some extent while in RAW mode it does not. The advantage of RAW is that you have complete control over the post-processing. In JPEG mode the camera makes an educated guess what processing to do (along with some settable parameters).

For longer exposures there's a mode that can take two pictures and compare them to eliminate noise. I haven't tried this out. It's only really good for still shots. I have no idea how it would look on motion.

p.s. I shoot in JPEG Large/Fine probably 99% of the time. I only use RAW when I want to do ALL the post-processing myself.

thanks i will keep that in mind
jaysun0ne is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
I'll post an example with the meta data shortly. I rarely ever shoot above ISO 200. The example that I post will have been from this afternoon

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-04-2008, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
I've converted the image to a jpeg and tried to resize it 3 times, and I still can't get it to post. Where can I post the full size image at? Or I can just email the original RAW file if that helps. Let me know what the best way is to make things easiest for you to view and that's what I'll do.

Thanks again for your help

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
Okay, here is a crop from a test shot yesterday. At 100% is doesn't look too bad, but at 200% you can really see how noisey the image is. At least in Photoshop and Digital Photo Proffesional you can. Also, here is the meta from the original shot.

File name
IMG_3121.CR2
Camera Model Name
Canon EOS 40D
Shooting Date/Time
4/5/2008 13:05:36
Tv(Shutter Speed)
1/200Sec.
Av(Aperture Value)
F11
Metering Modes
Evaluative metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
200
Lens
EF28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM
Focal Length
28.0 mm
Image size
3888 x 2592
Image Quality
RAW
Flash
Off
White Balance
Daylight
AF mode
AI focus AF
Picture Style
Landscape
Parameters
Tone Curve : Standard
Sharpness level : -
Pattern Sharpness : -
Contrast : 1
Sharpness : 5
Color saturation : 1
Color tone : 0
Highlight tone priority : Yes
Color matrix
-
Color Space
sRGB
File Size
13474 KB
Dust Delete Data
No
Drive Mode
Low-speed continuous shooting
GPS Data
Satellite signal status : -
Date(UTC) : -
Latitude : -
Longitude : -
Altitude : -
Geographic coordinate system : -
Owner's Name
Jason
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3121_CLSB example.JPG (329.5 KB, 27 views)

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 08:41 AM
Registered User
 
jaysun0ne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal QC
Posts: 386
Location: Montreal QC
Sportbike: 91 hawkgt & 05 rc51
Years Riding: 8
How you found us: fellow rider mvrc51
           
wow that is really bad

its not that often the noise is that bad for me
i dont know enough to comment on settings
hope you figure that out
jaysun0ne is offline  
post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysun0ne View Post
wow that is really bad

its not that often the noise is that bad for me
i dont know enough to comment on settings
hope you figure that out
I thought that looked pretty terrible for the ISO only being 200. If was shooting at 800-1600, then I would expect the results I'm getting. But at 200???

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 09:48 AM
Registered User
 
jaysun0ne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal QC
Posts: 386
Location: Montreal QC
Sportbike: 91 hawkgt & 05 rc51
Years Riding: 8
How you found us: fellow rider mvrc51
           
my g6 only has 50-400 iso settings

and with it at 400 at night trying to take shots of cityscapes is the only time it happens that bad
jaysun0ne is offline  
post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
SLR's have much larger sensors than other, more compact, cameras. That's why they can usually operate at much higher ISO's without as much noise. I know that the amount of noise that my old point and shoot had at ISO 100 should compare to around 400 or 600 on my SLR. I've seen other images, made on Canon 40D's at ISO 1600, that have similar noise that my images exhibit at half that level. Those examples that I've seen are what got me to start taking some sample shots, and prompted me to ask this question.

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 10:52 AM
The Halo hides my Horns
 
Lonely Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Posts: 12,687
Location: Bolingbrook, IL
Sportbike: SV650
Years Riding: 1 year
How you found us: Google
           
OK, allow me to step in.

#1 RAW mode has *no processing*, so you don't have all the fancy built in modes taking care of these details. You will have to learn to "process your negatives" yourself.

#2 Your image is terribly underexposed. Just like film, if you don't get enough light on the "media", you just won't get a proper image. When I first started with the Nikon D70s, I would terribly underexpose everything (I got the camera in winter so 95% of my shooting was low light), and the Nikon shows both noise, *and* harsh lines across the image that made me think I have a broken sensor....but in fact it was just my own lack of skill.

#3 Check your lens to make sure it's not a physical probelm with the lens which is causing underexposure. Take it off the camera and find the lever that actuates the aperture. Make sure it's snappy and doesn't stick.

#4 There could be problems with the camera body itself, though this is the least likely of all the options. Typically cameras are pretty solid.

Tips: Try different lenses, try different settings, try with/without flash, try in full daylight where the camera has a better chance of exposing.

aut cum scuto aut in scuto

http://www.firespeedtactical.com

My ZenFolio Gallery: www.LonelyRaven.ZenFolio.com

Last edited by Lonely Raven; 04-06-2008 at 10:55 AM.
Lonely Raven is offline  
post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 11:37 AM
Registered User
 
BusaDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville
Posts: 5,002
Location: Naperville
Sportbike: 2002 Turbo Hayabusa
Years Riding: Lost Track
How you found us: Tony
           
I agree that the photo is under exposed. This places the detail at the low end of the sensor dynamic range and closer to the noise floor. You should probably increase your exposure by a couple of stops.

Dave
BusaDave is offline  
post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
That image was just a cropped section from a full res photo. What is shown is a section from the backround of mid day image. The main subject is exposed just fine. I posted that section becuase it was what I could get small enough to post here, and still acurately show the level of noise I was talking about. If we need a better example with foreground exposure, then I'll post a new example in few minutes. I'll go outside and get a different shot right now. Or I can convert the enitire image to a jpeg, but I don't have anywhere to host a full res image.

I'll post back up in a few minutes once I get the new shot resized and converted to a jpeg.

Thanks,

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 03:18 PM
Registered User
 
BusaDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville
Posts: 5,002
Location: Naperville
Sportbike: 2002 Turbo Hayabusa
Years Riding: Lost Track
How you found us: Tony
           
Have a look at the histogram for the portion you posted:

Notice that there is no information in the upper 20% or so? Also notice the big peak at about 40%?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg histogram.jpg (2.6 KB, 3 views)

Dave
BusaDave is offline  
post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
So that is the cause of the noise, poor overall exposure? If that's the case, then it is just me, and not the camera or software being used to view the images. Obviously, not every exposure will be ideal, from a lighting standpoint, not an artistic standpoint. But will images always be noisy if not "perfectly" exposed for lighting conditions?

Does anyone want to see another exposure for an example or have we pretty much isolated the issue?

Thanks again, I appreciate the input and advice.

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 04:11 PM
Registered User
 
BusaDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Naperville
Posts: 5,002
Location: Naperville
Sportbike: 2002 Turbo Hayabusa
Years Riding: Lost Track
How you found us: Tony
           
There's still a possibility that you have a noisy sensor. You might want to check dpreview for this camera to see if they say anything about it.

Dave
BusaDave is offline  
post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 04:28 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,761
           
Shut up all that noise!

It shouldn't matter what camera you purchased. What matters is your settings. And the main things to watch for are: ISO and F-stop. If those are not in sync with each other you'll get that oh so wonderful noise.
Sometimes though it doesn't hurt a picture. Meaning a picture might not come out the way you wanted it but sometimes the mistakes are sweet too!
Loki_D_Wolf is offline  
post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 04:57 PM
Registered User
 
iamnotgreg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 12,529
Location: Chicago
Sportbike: 2003 Aprilia Mille R Colin Edwards / 01-02 Ninj ZX6r Tracktoy / 2003 SV650
Years Riding: 12
How you found us: some guy at the IBM credit union told me about it
           
I have been quiet thus far because everyone speaking knows more than I do IMHO...

In any case...
I havent seen this posted, and I thought it might be of some help... I have always heard good things about it.

http://www.picturecode.com/download.htm

Noise Ninja (i know.. clever name.. right?)

Obviously it is not going to overcome grossly incorrect settings, but it could be very useful if you already have the picture and would just like to make it as good as you can make it..
iamnotgreg is offline  
post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-06-2008, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
Yes, That is a scar...
 
JayHRC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Posts: 260
Location: sitting down, facing forward
Sportbike: '00 Honda RC 51 (sold)
Years Riding: 2 years
How you found us: worked with HD Tony's wife
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki_D_Wolf View Post
It shouldn't matter what camera you purchased. What matters is your settings. And the main things to watch for are: ISO and F-stop. If those are not in sync with each other you'll get that oh so wonderful noise.
Sometimes though it doesn't hurt a picture. Meaning a picture might not come out the way you wanted it but sometimes the mistakes are sweet too!
I like the cool "mistakes", I've had a few of those. They are a nice surprise when something cool happens that you didn't even notice at the time.

"I just want to say good luck, we're all counting on you"
JayHRC51 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chicagoland Sportbikes forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome